Minutes of the 10 November 1996 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Apr 1997 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The regular monthly chapter of the Caidan College of Heralds took place on 10 November 1996. In attendance were: Tonwen ferch Gruffyd Aur, Madawc Seamus Caradawg, Manus le Dragonier, Christopher Leyland D'Eyncourt, Ghislaine d'Auxerre, Kelan McBride, Elisabetta della Mirandola, Griffin Crossthwait, Astriðr Selr Leifsdottir, Muireadhach O hEidneachain, Nigel the Byzantine, Judwiga Czarny Jagello ze Smokza Jamy, Darrag Liath, Perrin Ghelincx Eridana Ambra Dragotta, and Aeschine nic Leoid na ceann Loch na Fallach.

The College has available for sale various handbooks and other reference items; the Caidan Herald's Handbook, the proceedings of the Scribes and Heralds Symposium, and (for the musically inclined) the Herald's Hymnal.

Nigel announced that there will be a pas d'armes next Sunday at Calafia Anniversary as a demo for the county park.

Remember that next month is the Christmas party. Bring tabards for the group picture, gifts for the gift exchange (if you want to participate), and foods for the party.

Madawac and his household made the offer to donate a set of sleeveless tabards to the College.

The submission of Constance Sabledrake raises an issue regarding submissions from the younger members of the Society. The College -- and Crescent -- do not encourage the registration of names or devices by children too young to have a good (and stable) idea of what they want. However, in those cases where a young person does have such maturity, they are encouraged to submit names and armory as are any other member. While we by no means require an AoA for this, young persons who have earned the right to be armigers are certainly encouraged to register names and arms. We encourage the display (not registration) of appropriately cadenced versions of the parents arms by children too young to register their own armory.

CAID, Kingdom of

Order of Chiron (New order name)

Name:

"Chiron" is the modern English transliteration of the name of the centaur Chiron who is mentioned in Bullfinch's Mythology (e.g., p. 128). The phrase "Order of " is a standard English phrase indicating the type of name.

ORDER NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

The Order of the White Scarf of Caid (New order name)

Name:

Modern English, based on the primary regalia of the Order. The order is established by treaty among, at this writing, the Kingdoms of Ansteorra, The Outlands, Trimaris, Atenveldt, An Tir, Atlantia and Caid.

ORDER NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Angels, Barony of

Rorik Sverðmaðr (New name, New device)

Per saltire sable and azure, a sword inverted within a serpent in annulo argent.

Name:

"Rorik" can be found on p. 167 of [Gordon, 1956] in the "Gesta Danorum." The submitter wishes to drop the accents.

"Sverðmaðr" is constructed from "sverð" meaning "sword" (from [Zo{"e}ga, 1910, p. 421]), and "maðr" meaning "man" (from [Zo{"e}ga, 1910, p. 284]). [Haraldsson, 1977] has several similar compounds: "gassimaðr" (p. 21), "kennimaðr, kaupmaðr" (p. 24),"logmaðr" (p. 25), "múgamaðr" (p. 26), etc.

Device:

No conflicts found.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

Thomas Whitehart (New name)

Name:

"Thomas" is found in [Withycombe, 1977, pp. 279- 280]; dated to 1086. "Whitehart" is similar to "Whitehorse" which on [Bardsley, 1988, p. 807] is dated to 14th century. "Whitehart" is in [Reaney, 1976, p. 488] under the heading of Whittard as a variant spelling.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

San Ambrogio, College of

College of San Ambrogio for the Guild of San Filemone (New badge)

(Fieldless), three candles argent enflamed proper issuant from a clarion Or.

Name:

The guild name was registered by Laurel in Sept. 1990. The College name was registered by Laurel in Jan. 1988.

Badge:

[badge] In an allusion to the device of the College (Sable, three candles in fess argent, enflamed proper, within a laurel wreath Or, registered by Laurel in Jan. 1988), the College wishes to continue the theme of three lit candles.

We consider this clear of Per bend sinister sable and azure, two candles argent enflamed proper, ensconced Or (Ailyth Cambell of Rannoch Moor, Apr. 1995). No conflicts found.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Perrin Ghelincx (New device)

Or, two lynges rampant guardant addorsed gules, in chief three ostrich feathers bendwise sinister azure.

Name:

Registered by Laurel in April 1996

Device:

Note: "lynges" is the plural form of "lynx". No conflicts found.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Calafia, Barony of

Veronique de Viennois (New name)

Name:

"Veronique" can be found on [Dauzat, 1987, p. 592]. [Withycombe, 1977] notes (under "Veronica" on p. 288) that ""Véronique" has been used a good deal in France."

"de Viennois" can be found on [Dauzat and Rostaing, 1978, p. 713].

In the opinion of the College, the grammatic construction is incorrect. Some alternates for the descriptor might be "des Viennois" ("of the Viennese") or "de Vienne" ("of Vienna"). On consultation with the submitting herald, this has been withdrawn for further consultation with the submitter.

NAME WITHDRAWN FOR FURTHER WORK

Darach, Shire of

Elizabeth Greene (New name)

Name:

"Elizabeth" can be dated to 1205 under this spelling on [Withycombe, 1977, pp. 99-100].

"Greene" can be found under "Green, Greene, Grene" on [Reaney, 1976, p. 204], though this exact spelling is not given except in the heading. A "Robert Greene", (1560?-1592), can be found on [Neilson, 1951, p. 625].

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Vivian of Silverlake (Resub [Caid] device)

Per bend vert and Or, a drop spindle proper threaded argent and a brown hound sejant guardant proper.

Name:

Approved and sent to Laurel by the Caidan College of Heralds, July 1996

Device:

Her previous submission of July 1996, Per bend vert and Or, a drop spindle threaded argent and a dog's head contourney in trian aspect proper, was returned by the College for style. We consider the unspooled thread to be artistic license. We will advise the submitter to draw the drop spindle larger in order to better fill the space.

No conflicts were found.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

Gallavally, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Dante Lizza de Benevento (New name, New device)

Argent, a cross sable, in chief two compass stars and overall issuant from base a demi-sun gules.

Name:

"Dante" is the "christian name of the poet Alighieri" (1265-1321), as cited under this spelling on [Withycombe, 1977, p. 79]. "Dante" is also found on [De Felice, 1986, p. 122] as a male given name.

"Lizza" is the submitter's modern last name.

"de Benevento" meaning "from Benevento" appears to be a reasonable locative. "Benevento" was "[f ]rom 6th to 11th cent., seat of powerful Lombard duchy" according to [Seltzer, 1952, p. 196].

Device:

No conflicts found.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

Dun Or, Barony of

Edith of York (New name change)

Name:

The submitter's original name, "Edith of Warwick", was registered by Laurel 4/92. She is simply changing the locative of her name. "Edith" is found in [Withycombe, 1977, p. 93] dated 1605. "York" is found in [Seltzer, 1952, p. 2126] cited as a city in northern England. The earliest date in regard to the city is 314 A.D.; a Bishop of York.

Upon the registration of this name, she wishes her currently registered name to be released.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

Edith of Warwick -- alternate persona name Eilidh Nighean Mhic Dubhghlas (Resub [Laurel] alternate persona name)

Name:

The submitter's original name, "Edith of Warwick", was registered by Laurel 4/92. Her alternate persona name was returned by Laurel. We have been unable to document the names "Eilidh" and "Dubhghlas" and the submitter did not provide any supporting documentation. We, unfortunately, must return this submission. She does not want the name to be abbreveated to "nic Dubhghlas". She would prefer the full title.

Since the meeting, we have found limited support that may be of interest. "Eilidh" is found in [Morgan, 1989], where it is described as "A diminutive of Eibhlin that has supplanted it in common use." While this is a weak reed, since we would not normally register a diminutive form and the source neither dates the name nor is authoritative for period names, we do note that "Eilidh" has been registered in the not too distant past. James of the Lake comments that

For what it's worth: Eilidh inghean mhic Dhubhghlas might work. I've aspirated Dubhghlas (found in [Woulfe, 1967, p. 284]). I believe that the 'inghean mhic' is correct for 'daughter of a mac' based upon an email from Tangwystyl intercepted on SCAHRLDS recently. Woulfe says this (Dubhghlas) is a surname of Scottish origin; it is also found in [MacLysaght, 1985, p. 88] as 'the name of a well-known Scottish clan very numerous in Ulster.'

ALTERNATE PERSONA NAME RETURNED FOR GRAMMAR AND LACK OF DOCUMENTATION.

Aeschine nic Leoid na Ceann Loch na Dallach (New name (change))

Name:

This is a name change from Kateryn of Blackwater registered by Laurel 11/94. "Aeschine" is found in [Black, 1946, p. 432] under the heading "Liulf"; dated to 1147. It is cited as the given name of the daughter and heiress of Uctredus filius Liolfi. "Leoid" is found in [Black, 1946, p. 538] under the heading of MacLeod; dated to 1338. "Kean Loch na Dallach" is found in Blaeu's The Grand Atlas on p. 86. The submitter has changed the "Kean" to "Ceann" in the understanding that "Kean" is anglicised. "Ceann" is found in Malcolm McLennan's Gaelic Dictionary on p. 76 under the heading of the same spelling, meaning "a head or point of land". There is an example found on p. 92 of The History of the Celtic Place-Names of Scotland which shows the use of "cean": "Ceann Loch Cille Chiaráin, meaning 'Head of St. Ciaran's Loch', now Campbeltown."

NAME CHANGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Constance Sabledrake (New name, New device)

Or, a melusine proper crined gules, in chief a bow proper.

Name:

"Constance" is found in [Withycombe, 1977, p. 72] dated 1273. "Sabledrake" is her father's name, Tuvor Sabledrake, which was registered by Laurel 6/85; she requests the application of the Grandfather clause, as a member of the immediate family of the person to whom the surname is registered.

Device:

We consider the shell brassiere to be artistic license, and are omitting it from the blazon. While it owes more to Disney than to period heraldic art, due to the relatively tender age of the submitter, we decline to tell her that she has to have a bare-breasted melusine (and, by omitting it from the blazon we leave open the possibility of a more period depiction at a later date).

We note, from the tenure of Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane 1/87 LoAR: "Since human flesh [proper] is a "light" tincture, it has insufficient contrast with the argent field." However, also noting (from [Papworth and Morant, 1977]) 1) Argent, a mermaid proper - Ellis, Grat Yarmouth Norfolk, p. 983 and 2) Or, a mermaid proper comb, glass and hair of the field - Lapp, Daruford, co. Wilts, p. 983 and the fact that more than half (depending on the particular emblazon) of a melusine is either the tail (vert) or the hair (gules), we feel that this charge has sufficient contrast with the field.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

Gyldenholt, Barony of

James Wyvern (Resub [Caid] device)

Ermine, a chevron between three estoiles of six points gules.

Name:

Approved and sent to Laurel by the Caidan College of Heralds in June 1996; returned by Laurel in November 1996.

Device:

His previous submission of July 1996, Azure, a chevron between three estoiles Or, was returned by the College for SCA conflict.

There is one conflict with this resubmission found in [Papworth and Morant, 1977, p. 417], Argent, a chevron between three estoiles gules with several names associated with it (Ardall, Colchester, and Wilson), though none seem to require protection under the Modest Proposal.

Administrative remark After the meeting of the College, but before the LoI or minutes were prepared, we received the November Letter of Acceptances and Returns (LoAR), on which the submitter's name was returned. We are therefore pending this submission until the submitter is able to resubmit an appropriate name.

DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME.

Maritsa Milovich (New badge)

(Fieldless) A lamb's head cabossed argent.

Name:

The submitter's name was registered by Laurel 3/87.

Badge:

Against the arms of Carl of Carmarthin (5/80), Azure, masoned argent, a ram's head cabossed argent.

The key issue for this potential conflict is, of course, whether there is a CD between a ram's head and a lamb's head, as there is one CD for the field (or lack thereof ).

We would generally consider a 'sheep' include to a ram and a lamb (re. PicDic - Bruce doesn't mention a ewe; Parker, p. 532, would seem to agree that a sheep is either a ram or a lamb (for British heraldry anyway) and ram's heads seem common enough, but the lamb is usually shown whole.

When comparing a ram's head to a lamb, it appears that the significant difference between the two is the presence or absence of the horns; it is not clear if this is sufficient for a CD; we are therefore forwarding this for consideration of this point

We note that there are several conflicts found in [Papworth and Morant, 1977, p. 912]. We, however, do not believe that they are important enough to protect.

APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Heatherwyne, Shire of

Karol Johana Gartenheit (Resub [Caid] badge)

Per bend sinister Or and azure, in fess a card pique inverted and a jonquil blossom counterchanged.

Name:

The submitter's name was registered by Laurel 11/89.

Badge:

The previous badge submission, Azure, a daffodil Or, was returned at kingdom for conflict with the badge for the Order of the Gilded Lily, (SCA-Barony of Wintersgate (11/82)), Sable, a lily blossom Or and with the arms of Christine the Accursed (6/73), Azure, a chrysanthemum slipped and leaved Or.. No conflicts were found with the present submission.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL.

Postmeeting

Except for the library clean-up, the meeting ended at 3:15pm.

The minutes of this chapter were massaged by Moucheture after Ghislaine d'Auxerre and Christopher Leyland D'Eyncourt typed them and before Crescent further mangled them.

In Service to Caid

Eiríkr Mjoksiglandi Sigurðarson
Crescent Principal Herald

References

Bardsley, C. W. (1988). A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames. Heraldry Today, Parliment Piece, Ramsbury, Wiltshire. Originally published London, 1901.

Black, G. F. (1946). The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York Public Library, New York, 1989 reprint edition.

Dauzat, A. (1987). Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et des Prénoms de France. Larousse, Paris. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.

Dauzat, A. and Rostaing, C. (1978). Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux en France. Guénégaud, Paris, second edition. Library of James of the Lake.

De Felice, E. (1986). Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A., Milan.

Gordon, E. V. (1956). An Introduction to Old Norse. Oxford at the Clarendon Press, New York, New York, 2nd edition revised by A.R. Taylor edition. Library of Éiríkr Sigurðarson.

Haraldsson, G. B. (1977). The Old Norse Name. Yggssalr Press, Olney, Maryland.

ibn Auda, D. (1995). Rules for Submissions of the College of Arms of the Society for Creative Anachronism. Society for Creative Anachronism, Milpitas, California. With updates as published in Laurel Letters.

Iulstan Sigewealding (Stephen R. Goldschmidt), editor (1995). An Ordinary of Arms of the Society for Creative Anachronism. Free Trumpet Press, 877 San Lucas Avenue, Mountain View, California, fifth edition. With semi-annual updates and an electronic edition.

MacLysaght, E. (1985). The Surnames of Ireland. Irish Academic Press, Dublin, sixth edition.

Morgan, P. (1989). Ainmean Chloinne: Scottish Gaelic Names for Children. Taigh na Teud Music Publishers, Isle of Skye.

Neilson, W. A., editor (1951). Webster's Biographical Dictionary. G. & C. Merriam Co., Springfield, Mass.

Papworth, J. W. and Morant, A. W. (1977). An Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of Arms belonging to Families in Great Britain and Ireland; Forming an Extensive Ordinary of British Armorials. Five Barrows, Bath. Reproduced from the 1874 edition originally published by T. Richards of London.

Reaney, P. H. (1976). A Dictionary of British Surnames. Routledge and Kegan Paul, London, second (R. M. Wilson) edition.

Seltzer, L. E., editor (1952). The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. Columbia University Press, Morningside Heights, New York.

Withycombe, E. G. (1977). The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford University Press, Oxford, third edition. reprinted 1982.

Woulfe, P. (1967). Sloinnte Gaedeal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames. Genealogical Publishing Company, Baltimore, Maryland.

Zoëga, G. (1910). A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic. Oxford University Press, Oxford, England. (reprinted 1981).

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page