Minutes of the 7 December 1997 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Apr 1998 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The regular chapter meeting of the Caidan College of Heralds occurred on the 7th day of the second month of the reign of Their most gracious Majesties, Rorik and Karina. (December AS XXXII [1997 c.e.]) Crescent called the meeting to order at 15 minutes after the hour of 11 of the clock.

Eirikr (Crescent) again requested that folks with submissions come in by 10:30 in order to give the secretary and typists time to process and enter them. He would like to avoid requiring day-before or month-before submission so we can keep our speedy processing record. As an alternative folks can send in the submission by mail, though a follow-up phone call is suggested. If a mail receipt is required, drop a SAS-postcard in the envelope to save signature time at the post office.

Some household administrivia due to the rain and the Christmas party the usual restriction on food within the house is suspended. The round bin in the back is for recyclables and not for trash.

Year end reports (Domesday) are due in Crescent's hands by Twelfth-night. They are accepted by email or post office (follow-up either with a phone call to verify receipt). Check the Administrative Handbook or the letter for details on what is required to be in your report. All members of the College of Heralds (Kingdom staff and all branch heralds) are required to submit a report.

Ghislaine (Aurum) sent around sign-up sheet for the consultation table and for the cryer for the Great Western War. She also reminded us of her heraldic submission contest.

Manus (Battlement) is asking for listings of awards presented by local branches so he can publish them in the Crown Prints. Territorial heralds are asked to send a list of 1 what the award is, 2 what it looks like, 3 what it's for, 4 How long it has been around, and 5 anything else worth noting about it. Mail or email it to Madawc or caid_coh@castle.org for forwarding.

caid_heralds@castle.org is a general email reflector for open discussion about heraldry in Caid. Feel free to subscribe. [original subscription directions deleted in favor of a link to the list page.] The text versions of the minutes and LoAR should/will be sent to this list.

Laurel reminds people about subscriptions to the LoAR for $25/yr, or electronic subscriptions for $1/ea. They are also online on the Laurel web page.

Crescent is interested in exploring X/GML markup of minutes and stuff to permit their more automated markup for publication. Anyone interested in this should talk with Crescent.

The new forms are a part of the new Administrative Handbook (actually, the only change). The B.o.D. has decreed that they must sign off on the new forms. There is legal language on the new forms that the B.o.D. should get opportunity to approve. Laurel asked that the forms be considered at the Nov. conference call, but they were remanded to the next meeting. The earliest date of implementation will now be March or April, 1998.

James (Mouchetere) noted that some German name books are available again via an SCA merchant who commonly writes to the Rialto and most likely will attend the Symposium in July 1998.

Eirikr read from the November LoAR.

The following submissions were considered

Altavia, Barony of

Dougal MacRae (laurel resub device)

Or, three chevronels braced gules on a chief sable a lion couchont Or

Name:

Approved by laurel 1/96

Device:

Original was returned for conflict with Jordre Pargon of Windhover's Reach. Argent,three chevronels braced azure and on a chief sable a now leopard couchant argent spotted sable. There are CD s for change of the tincture tof the field and the primary charge group.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Mathghamhain MacRaith (laurel resub name)

Name:

Originally submitted as Mathuin MacRae. Laurel suggested the new spelling. Laurel's comments attached. Mathghamhain O'corrain & Maguire p. 135, Under Mathgamain. MacRait, Woulfe, p. 401, under MacRaith. MacLysaght, p. 63, under MacCrea.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Sarah-Jeanné Winterton Croft (new name and device)

Argent, on a pile inverted azure between two stags combattant proper a mullet argent

Name:

Sarah is the given name dated to 1201 (found under Delaware on pg. 130 of Reany and Wilson. In the same text on pg. 496 and under the given spelling Winterton can be dated to 1204. Bardsley also notes that it is the name of two parishes (pg. 819 under this spelling). We could not document Jeanné, though Withycombe notes that the form without the accent is the "Modern French" (under Jean, pg. 174). Croft can be dated to 1379 under this spelling on pg. 218 of Bardsley.

We are returning the submission because we cannot document the hyphenated form of the name or the accented Jeanné (and the submitter does not allow changes). We recommend that the submitter drop the hyphen and the accent and perhaps change it to Sarah Jeanne of Winterton Croft.

Device:

We did not do a complete device conflict check

NAME RETURNED FOR STYLE
DEVICE PENDED UPON APPROVAL OF NAME

Susan of Dublin (new name and device)

Argent, on a fess wavy between three natural dolphins azure a rose Or, barbed argent and seeded azure

Name:

Susan is the name of one Susan Brabane who was buried in 1582 (found under Braban on pg. 125, Bardsley, A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames). Dublin is the name of the county and county borough in Ireland. It is the location of the University of Dublin (Trinity College) founded in 1591.

Device:

Crescent notes 'Good wavy!'

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Calafia, Barony of

Eridana Ambra Dragotta (kingdom resub badge)

[fieldless] A compass star pierced quarterly Or and argent

Name:

Passed laurel 9/93

Device:

Submitter was instructed to make the piercing smaller.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Hrothbeorht Matheus (new name and device)

Per fess azure and sable, a mullet of eight point argent pierced gules within a bordure argent mullety of eight points gules

Name:

Hrothbeorht found undated under this spelling on pg. 302 of Ononmasticon Anglo-Saxonicum (a similar version, Hroethbeorht [note the additional 'e'], is dated to 700). Matheus is dated to 1086 (under Matthews, pg 302, Reaney and Wilson). The submitter originally had Hrothbeort Mathews, but we could not find the precise given name (note the ending 'rt' as opposed to 'rht'), and we could not find an early date for the submitter's original surname.

Device:

The submitter originally had Per fess azure and sable, a mullet of eight point argent pierced gules within a bordure argent mullety of eight points gules, but we consider this in conflict with Sable, a sun eclipsed within a bordure argent (SCA, Cynedd ap Gwen, Jan. 1985). The addition of the mullets in the bordure removes the conflict.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

James Andrew MacAllister (administrative action, badge)

[Fieldless] A cross-crosslet fitchy argent charged with a compass star azure

Name:

Registered by Laurel, Aug. 1995

Device:

The above badge was registered by Laurel in Sept. 1996 as a personal badge. At the time he did request that it should be registered as a joint badge with Ghislaine d'Auxerre and that upon its registration that their previously registered joint badge of Per chevron azure and vert, two compass stars argent and a bear passant (Aug. 1994 under Ghislaine d'Auxerre, transferred to James Andrew MacAllister in Apr. 1996) be released, though these requests were lost in translation from Caid to Laurel. The submitter requests that these changes be made.

ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Heatherwyne, Shire of

Allan Blackharp (new name and device)

Or, an unstrung harp reversed sable within a bordure embattled vert

Name:

Submitter asserts that he has previously submitted under the name Alan Drisac, but we can find no evidence of this. Allan, Whythcombe, p. 7, under Al(l)an, attributed to a popular early Welsh and Bretton saint. Blackharp, Reaney & Wilson, p. harp - 218, black 46. Black is used as a sign of an inn, as is harp. The justification for dropping atte is the examples in Laurel Precedent. Harp, Compact OED, p. 1259, dated to 1382.

Device:

Returned for redraw due to the treatment of the corners of the bordure. Crescent notes that the basic design concept appears very nice. While being redrawn, please make the border bolder.

NAME APPROVED AND SEND TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Mons Draconis, Incipient Canton of (Dreiburgen)

[Ed. note: The original minutes said "Calafia", which is incorrect.]

Mons Draconis, Incipient Canton of (kingdom resub badge)

[fieldless] A dragon's tail couped vert

Name:

Registered by Laurel 6/97

Device:

There may be problems with identifiability. The submission was returned last month because of barbing on the tail contrary to the availability of evidence in the period depictions of dragons. We recognize that to modern eye, the presence of the barb is what makes it specifically identifiable as a dragon's tail as opposed to a lizard's or that of another scaly green thing.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Naevehjem, Barony of

Seán na Mora (new name and device)

Argent, a dolphin haurient vert, on a bordure sable four escallops in cross Or

Name:

We consider this clear of Se'an O' Mo'rain (SCA, Dec. 1994) because the change in the last syllable. Seán is "[i]n modern Irish, the normal form" according to Ó Corrain and Maguire (under Seaan on pg. 163), and we have corrected the submitter's version without the accent to follow this. Mora can be found under muir on pg. 193 of the Dictionary of the Irish Language, Compact Edition.

Device:

The submitter will be advised to draw the tertiary charges on the bordure larger, which would require that he should draw the primary charge somewhat smaller in order to draw the bordure wider. Had the bordure not been charged these changes would not be necessary.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Cragdon on the Water, Incipient Canton of (Naevehjem)

Anne Cathryn of Wicken Bonhunt (new device)

Argent, a hunting horn between three lillies sable

Name:

Approved and sent to Laurel by the Caidan College of Heralds, July 1997

Device:

There are several conflicts which can be found in Papworth, pg. 949, though we do not believe any of the associated persons are protected by the Modest Proposal.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Josephus Piscator (new name and device)

Argent, on a lozenge azure a compass star throughout Or

Name:

Submitter includes a note from Harpy stating that Piscator is appropriately formed. Josephus, Withycombe, p. 180 - 181, dates to 1086. Piscator, Cassell's Compact Latin Dictionary, Compiled by D.P. Simpson, p. 170, a fisherman or fishmonger.

Device:

We note RFS, XI.4 (arms of pretense). Since there is a single charge, which is not an ordinary, we believe this submission is acceptable in this regard.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Rós nighean Somhairle (new name)

Name:

Rós is the third version of Róis as found under the latter on pp. 156-7 of Ó Corráin and Maguire. We have corrected the submitted form of Ro's. nighean is the latter Scots form for 'daughter of.' Somhairle is the Gaelic form of Somerled as found under the latter on pp. 736-7 of Black. As the submitter wrote "We believe that 'Somhairle' is also in the genative (sic) case as evidenced by 'Mac Somhairle' given in Woulfe, p. 408, a patronymic used in Scotland and in the North of Ireland. Talan Gwynek in his 'On Femine (sic) Patronymics in Gaelic', Caidan Heraldic Symposium Proceedings, March 1996. p. 55, does not aspirate 'Somhairle' in Beathag Nighean Somhairle mhic Ghille Bhrighde."

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Nordwache, Barony of

Jamie Snowberd of Ross (Kingdom resubmission name)

Name:

His previous submission of July 1997, Jamie of Ross, was returned for a non-SCA conflict (James Ross, for whom the Ross Sea in Antartica is named). Jamie is the undated "usual diminutive...in Scotland" according to Withycombe (under James, pp. 170-2). Snawberd can be formed from snaw which according to Reaney and Wilson (under snow on pg. 416) is an undated Old English 'nickname for one with snow-white hair,' and berd (dated to 1086 under beard on pg. 34 of Reaney and Wilson). In support we also note smetheberd (1230), snatchberd (1379), snawbal (1301) and snawite (1296) as being similar forms (Studies on Middle English Nicknames, pp. 164-5). Ross is dated to 1100 under this spelling on pg. 286 of Place-Names of Scotland by Johnston.

We have concerns in temporal compatibilities because we cannot find a date for Jamie as an early diminutive of James.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

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