Minutes of the 24 January 1999 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jul 1999 LoAR; Joia de Tarleton's device was reblazoned on the Feb 07 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The meeting started at 11:29, following frantic typing by the two typists.

Please bring chairs to these meetings, we're running out.

Manus and Beatrice's child, Honor Azure has been delivered. All are healthy and happy.

Article for the CP on the proposed changes to the ranking system is written, and should appear in the March CP. Comments are welcome.

Please remember to bring 2 copies of the name form, 3 color copies and 1 black and white device/badge. The submitting herald is responsible for making sure everything is there. Per-item cost is $10. If there is an existing file for the submitter, pull the old file and include it with the submission. All submissions go in the bottom of the submission pile.

Caidan Scribal and Heraldic Symposium is the first and second of May in Calafia. Classes are being coordinated by Silver Trumpet. Christopher Thomas is overall autocrat. Site is Allied Gardens Rec. Center in the Allied Gardens area.

The College of Heralds has a reasonable bank balance. We are beginning to think about purchasing things that will make life better for us. Suggestions can be given to Crescent.

Consulting heralds are needed at Estrella. We will be working Friday, Saturday and Sunday. If you are interested, talk to Silver Trumpet. Herald's Point will be on merchant's row. James is providing books.

Silver Trumpet is looking for people to teach classes at Collegium (and the symposium). Please get in touch with her with topic suggestions or offers to teach.

To subscribe to the caid_herald's mailing list [original subscription directions deleted in favor of a link to the list page.]

The current submission forms are available on the web in PDF form. It is somewhere between discouraged and prohibited to make alternate versions of the form in any other format as there is a chance that something may be left out.

Please remember to tell submitters to use bright, vivid heraldic colors, especially when using color printers and/or copiers.

Submissions considered

Caid, Kingdom of

Ghislaine d'Auxerre (Transfer of Badge)

[Fieldless] A spur fesswise Or

Badge:

M. Ghislaine d'Auxerre wishes to transfer ownership of her badge to the kingdom, and the kingdom accepts ownership of said badge.

DISCUSSION OF THIS ITEM IS PENDED BY CRESCENT

Altavia, Barony of

Matthew Fitz Michael (New name and Device)

Per bend sinister gules argent and sable, two horses heads counterchanged eyes counterchanged

Name:

Insufficient funds ($9 for 2 submissions) received.

SUBMISSIONS PENDED FOR INSUFFICIENT FUNDS

Brendan Stagheart (New name and device)

Sable, a stag Or

Name:

Insufficient funds ($9 for 2 submissions) received.

SUBMISSIONS PENDED FOR INSUFFICIENT FUNDS

Gráinne Inghean Diarmada (New name and device)

Argent, three triskels gules, on a chief sable an alaunt couchant argent

Name:

"Grainne" Found in Ó Corráine and Maguire on p. 114, under Gráinne. We believe that the patronimic needs to be lenited. We're not sure which form, so leave that for the Gaelic speakers of the college to decide. "Diarmada" found in Woulfe p. 496, under diarmada.

Device:

The Great Dane is apparently a period breed of dog, according to The Meridian Heraldic Symposium, AS XVII p. 45, "May I use a Collie in my Arms?" (and Laurel precedent, which was based on this article).

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Christal Fleur dela Mer (New device)

Per pale vert and azure a fleur-de-lys and a bordure embattled Or

Name:

Registered by Laurel 3/98

Device:

Note to artist feed the charges, especially the border.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Anne Travers of Amberlye (Kingdom Resub Device)

Vert, a hand in benediction Or, a chief Or semy of dragonflies vert

Name:

approved and sent to Laurel December 1998

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Angels, Barony of

Elspeth of Foxden (New Name)

Name:

submitted as Elspeth of Foxes Den

"Elspeth" may be found in "Talan Gwynek-" On Feminine Patronymics in Gaelic " page 59. "Foxden" is found in Ekwall, page 186 under "Foxton", dated to 1325 and 1407.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Morganna Elisabetta Rosatti (New household name and badge resubmission)

Household name: La Lancia della Casa Rosatti

[Fieldless] Two spears in saltire proper penneted vert overall a rose argent barbed and seeded proper

Name:

The name is Italian, apparently intended to mean "The Lance of House Rosatti". "Lance" is used in various references as a term referring to a group of people, specifically a small cavalry unit centered around a knight or man-at-arms. This is discussed in Medieval Warfare by Terence Wise, page 19, and Hans Delbrück p.270 (photocopies included). The OED Vol L, p 4344, shows "lance" "a horse-soldier armed with a lance" dated to 1602, and "a man-at-arms with his attendant archers, foot-soldiers, etc." 1818. There is no evidence that the word "lancia" was the term used in period to refer to said unit type. What we know is Wise indicates that a word which is translated into English as "lance" was used, and our dictionary indicates that the Italian "lancia" can be translated into English as "lance", but this is circumstantial evidence. Forwarded to the College to let them decide if this meaning of "lance" is in agreement with period usage.

Device:

Crescent cites "Kingdom of Meridies", for The Companionate of the Queen's Yeoman, 12/96, [Fieldless] A sheaf of three arrows inverted, overall a rose argent. There is a CD for fieldless and one for type, number, and tincture of charges. There is some doubt as to whether the second CD is valid, based on Da'ud 1, p 5, "Arrow" - "[Per pale... two arrows counterchanged] 'Conflict with... two swords palewise... While there is a CD between swords and arrows, Laurel cannot in good conscience apply RfS X.2 to them.". Since precedents are not clear on the subject, we are forwarding this for the consideration of the College.

HOUSEHOLD NAME AND BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Michael Patrick Morgan (New name and device)

Per bend sinister embattled argent azure a sword bendwise hilt in chief counterchanged surmounted by a heart parted per bend sinister embattled gules argent overall a quill pen fesswise sable

Name:

"Michael" is found in Withycombe p. 218, under Michael. 1279. "Patrick" is found in Withycombe p. 239. Dated to 1200s. "Morgan" is found in Reaney and Wilson p. 314, under Morgan, dated to 1214.

Device:

The pen is predominantly over the heart, rendering it sable on gules, and thus it must be returned. A resubmission of this must involve a redesign, therefore, this was not checked for conflict.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR COLOR ON COLOR

Calafia, Barony of

Calafia, Barony of: Order of the Serpent's Talon (New badge)

[Fieldless] A dragon's jambe inverted couped Or clutching an orb azure

Name:

"Calafia" was registered by Laurel August 1979, The "Order of the Serpent's Talon" was registered 09/91.

Device:

The old badge for this Order, [Fieldless] A dragon's jambe couped Or, is to be released on registration of this badge. We note that there has been some discussion within the College that appears to imply that the term "talon" may also be applied to this charge. Since this is more euphonious with the order name, that blazon would be preferred. Crescent is of the opinion that the word talon refers to a single claw, not to the entire hand/foot and part of the leg, and so has blazoned it this way. Crescent notes "Leonore of the Dark Lands" Sable, a talon erect couped Or enclosing an orb Gules. We believe there are three significant differences between these two pieces of armory one for fieldlessness, one for the tincture of the orb, and one for change of position (a talon erect has the claws to chief, this submission has the claws to base). We also note that the barony does not release the registered badge until and unless this is passed. According to the PicDic this is a dragon's gambe or jambe inverted.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Calafia, Barony of: Order of the Gilded Thimble (New badge)

[Fieldless] A thimble Or

Name:

The "Order of the Gilded Thimble" was registered (?) [Dolphin cannot find any reference to this name in either the paper or online Armorial]

Device:

This is in conflict with "Arianne Anastasia Balfour" Jan '96, [Fieldless] A thimble Or.

BADGE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Calafia, Barony of: for the Ordre du Coeur de Serpent (New badge)

[Fieldless] A dragon's jambe bendwise couped Or clutching a heart bendwise gules

Name:

The "Ordre du Coeur de Serpent" was submitted on the Sep. 30, 1998 LoI.

Badge:

See above conversation on "Leonore of the Dark Lands." Because a significant part of the change between a heart and a roundel is obscured, thus no CD is countable.

BADGE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Joia de Tarleton (New device)

Per bend vert and gules, in bend sinister two spoons in cross reversed argent and a pomegranate Or

Name:

Registered by Laurel 10/1998

Device:

Note to submitter/ artist The pomegranate should show seeds.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Alonso Giovanni da Livorno (New Name)

Name:

"Alonso" is found under "Alonzo" in DeFelice-Nomi, page 59. "Giovanni" is found in DeFelice-Nomi, page 192. "da" is the appropriate locative indicating "from the city of". "Livorno" may be found under "Leghorn" in Columbia Lippencott, page 1036. It is a city located in Tuscany, Italy.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Amargein of Puckridge (New Name and device)

Azure, a bowen cross Or between four arrows in mascle argent

Name:

"Amargein" may be found in Ó Corráin and Maguire page 22. Note that the submitter will accept an Anglicized version of the name. "Puckridge" is a place-name found in Ekwall page 375. This combination of a Gaelic first name and an English locative has been ruled acceptable by Laurel.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Bjorn atte Woodepyle (Laurel Name Appeal)

Name:

This is an appeal of Laurel's name-change of the original submission "Bjorn of the Woodepyle" to "Bjorn Pile of the Wode". Her contention was that "Woodepyle" as a locative was undocumented. The name "Woodvine" from Reaney, page 499 is defined as "dweller by the woodpile", exactly the same meaning as that of our client. We note that while Reaney dates the name to 1642, the etymology given depends on name elements that were 500 years old -- namely from the Old English-- and we believe that this is evidence of much earlier use of the name. The submitter will accept any changes to the type or spelling of preposition but specifically wishes the word "Woodepyle" or spelling variants thereof. This is forwarded with the approval of the College.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Clara Luisa da Livorno (New Name)

Name:

submitted as Clara Luisa di Livorno

"Clara" is found in De Felice- Nomi, page 105. "Luisa" is found in De Felice- Nomi, page 244. "Livorno" may be found under "Leghorn" in Columbia Lippencott, page 1036. It is a city located in Tuscany, Italy.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Rafaela Bianca Manciata (Name and Device release)

Name:

This is a resubmission of the Release request. We are now including the required documentation from the submitter.

RELEASE OF NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Darach, Shire of

Andres Miguel Rodriguez de la Rosa (Laurel device resubission)

Checky azure and Or, a tierce sable, overall a winged rabbit rampant maintaining a rapier argent

Name:

Registered by Laurel 25 Nov, 1998

Device:

The previous submission, Per pale purpure and vert, a winged rabbit maintaining a rapier argent, was returned by Laurel for conflict with Vert, a winged coney salient reguardant argent. This redesign changes the field tinctures and adds the tierce. This addition is intended to add a second CD (there being one for the field itself). Whether this is the case or not depends, of course, on whether the tierce is a charge or a field division. The case can be argued either way. We note Precedents of Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane, 1988, p. 157, which says "the tierce is a charge, not a field division". Discussion in various other books is ambiguous, but tends toward the field division; the PicDic arguing that it is a charge. Crescent feels that this is a charge based on available documentation, precedent, and the PicDic saying so.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Caterine Barré de Venoix (New badge)

[Fieldless] A catherine wheel gules

Name:

Registered by Laurel 1/98

Badge:

Letter of permission to conflict with "Iathus of Scara" 6/80, Ermine, a cogwheel gules, is included with submission.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Emrys FitzRainold de Venoix (New Badge)

[Fieldless] A vannet Or

Name:

approved by Laurel June 1997

Badge:

We have found two SCA conflicts. "Lyondemere" owns Barry wavy vert and argent, a lion's-paw escallop Or. "Fridrikr Tomasson av Knusslig Hamn" owns Gules bezanty an escallop Or. Mundanely there is a conflict from Papworth, page 679 of ... An escallop ..., a seal owned by "Geoffrey de Talketh" though we do not believe that the seal warrants protection. In addition, there is Azure, an escallop Or on the same page, owned by "Bayton".

BADGE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Ismay of Giggleswick (New Name)

Name:

"Ismay" is found in Withycombe, page 165. "Giggleswick" is found in Johnson, page 273. We note that Johnson indicates that the pronunciation of the locative is "Gilzick".

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Douceline de la Hay (Kingdom Resub Name and device)

Per pale sable and argent a roundel between in fess a decrescent and an increscent counterchanged, on a chief gules three treskelions argent

Name:

"Douceline" is documented by the submitter as a 13th century saint from Marseilles. See attached photocopies from Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics, page 23. The closest the College was able to come was "Douce" from Dauzat, page 209. "de la Hay" is found in Black, page 350, found under "Hay" and dates to the middle of the 11th Century as a place name.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Steinsee, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Martin de Thalassa (Name appeal, device resubmission)

Vert on a pile argent an owl contourny perched on a barrel sable

Name:

This submission was returned by Laurel 25 Nov, 1998. Laurel required proof that the factitious town of "Thalassa" is/was humanly inhabited. Enclosed are pp104/6 of Rabelais Gargantua & Pantagruel; Book IV, Chap. 1, in which the author talks about the Port of Thalassa, Burghers of Thalassa listening to prayers, Psalms sang by a Thalassa Chorus, and Thalassians participating in a large wet dinner. Also enclosed is a copy of the conclusion of the author's dedicatory dated 1552. Based on the excerpts, it appears to us that Thalassa was inhabited by humans in the book; this addresses the reason for the return.

Device:

The device conflicts with "Nicholos of the Hill Folk", Jul, '74, Vert, on a pile argent, a dragon rampant gules. RfS 10.4.J.

NAME APPEAL FORWARDED TO LAUREL WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE COLLEGE
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Dun Or, Barony of

Edith of Arboroath (Device resubmission)

Tenneé, a Pictish cat-like figure vert

Name:

Registered by Laurel Nov, 1998

Device:

Note to artist talons and eyes are gules. The primary charge, apparently a Pictish/Celtic cat (the sumitter blazoned it as "a pissed Pictish pussycat" if Crescent reads the handwriting correctly) is not blazonable. The position of this cat is closest to "herrissoné", but is not correctly drawn for that position. The position as drawn is unblazonable. In short, the particular depiction of a cat as drawn here is not known to heraldry and is not blazonable. Tenné is not a heraldic color used in the Society (although it is used in some non-SCA heraldry). The submitter may have intended the field to be Or, but the emblazon is not Or. This is being returned for lack of reproducibility as well as the use of non-heraldic colors.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR UNIDENTIFIABILTY AND USE OF A DISALLOWED TINCTURE

Theresia Diu Harpfærîn (Laurel Resub Name and device)

Per bend azure and argent, a harp OR and three roses proper

Name:

"Theresia" is the German equivalent of "Theresa" according to Withycombe. We find the submitter's argument for Diu Harpfærîn persuasive "harpfe"="harp", "ære"="one who plays", and "în"="feminine ending". All of these name elements are from Middle High German. The submitter's documentation is attached.

Device:

We note for the submitter that the soundbox is not drawn correctly to make the orientation of the harp identifiable. In particular, harps are commonly depicted with straight soundboxes and curved pillar. While not requiring a completely standard depiction, we recommend that future artists should consult an heraldic depiction of the instrument for reference; an example was provided to the consulting herald.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Rowan Killian (Kingdom Resub Device)

Per bend sable and azure, a griffin segreant and on a chief argent three crescents sable

Name:

approved by Laurel February 1997

Device:

Crescent Herald notes that the Azure tincture in this emblazon is fairly dark, probably due to the method of reproduction. The Pictorial Dictionary claims that this is the default position but we wish to err on the side of caution, hence this blazon. This device is clear of Sable, a griffin segreant and on a chief argent three fleurs-de-lis sable owned by "Aodhnait inghean mhic Charthaigh". Both are simple armory so we have two CD's, one for tincture of the field, one for complete difference of tertiary charges.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Isles, Shire of

Sciath Nichuanachtaigh of Cian MacRath (New device)

Gyronny gules and Or, a dragon passant azure

Name:

Registered by Laurel 7/94

Device:

Submitter wishes to keep her old device as a badge if this is registered. Note to artist well drawn! Crescent cites "Somerkey" (or "Somerley") in Papworth p. 984, Gyrony of eight gules and Or, a wyvern with wings endorsed sable, noting that despite the similiarity of design, there are at least two CDs here.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gareth Nikodemus Somerset (Device change)

Per pale gules and Or, three towers counterchanged

Name:

Registered by Laurel 12/92

Device:

Note to artist use stronger colors.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Wintermist, Shire of

Sabine of Shernbourne (Laurel Resub Device)

Argent, a chevron between three chalices inverted sable

Name:

registered by Laurel November 1998

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Felix Selwyn (Laurel resub device)

Argent, a pale between four lozenges gules

Name:

Registered by Laurel 09/97

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

The meeting ended, except for the cleanup, shortly after 5:00. Crescent thanks the numerous attendees, especially in light of the numerous submissions.

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