Minutes of the 7 May 2000 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Oct 2000 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Crescent called the meeting to order at 11:15am.

June meeting is the 18th (Father's day). July meeting is the 23rd.

Gold Forest Pursuivant is asking for help at Gyldenholt Anniversary.

Trident Pursuivant is asking for help with the morning cry at May Potrero War. She also has a block of discount rooms at Day's Inn for Coronation. Contact her if you would like information.

The Society Children's Coordinator, Lady Julleran da Mestre, announced that a badge for the SCA Ministry of Children has been registered. Per Pale purpure and argent two roundels counterchanged.

We would like it if Jana Aoiball or her group's herald contact the Ruby Pursuivant (Principality of Gleann Abhann, Kingdom of Meridies). They would like permission to conflict.

Crescent reminds submitting heralds to please be sure the submitter's zip code is on the form! Also please put submitting branch name, even if there isn't a slot on the form for it.

To subscribe to the Caid Herald's email list [original subscription directions deleted in favor of a link to the list page.]

Caid, Kingdom of

Caid, Kingdom of: Scimitar Pursuivant (kingdom resubmission)

Name:

Scimitar - Sword of Middle Eastern design characterized by the width and curvature of the blade.

Polling Results from this meeting:
titles for canton (and equivalents) 8 for, 6 against, 1 abstain
titles for shires (and equivalents) 15 for, 1 against

PENDED FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/POLLING

Caid, Kingdom Of: for praetorium (New badge)

[Fieldless] Perched atop four crescents in saltire horns outward argent, an eagle Or

Device:

Crescent notes Meliora Rhydderch, 02/99, Per bend vert and sable, an eagle rising contourny wings elevated and addorsed maintaining in its claws a roundel Or. There should be a CD for the change of posture of the eagle and a CD for the co-primary crescents in saltire.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Angels, Barony of

College of Southern Crossroads (New Name)

Name:

This is a submission for the incipient college located at the Univ. of Southern California. The submission is accompanied by signatures of the members of the College. We are unable to justify the formation of this name.

First, the earliest date of the word "Crossroad" is 1719 in the OED. We have found "Crossway", having a similar meaning, dated to 1480. Ekwall has a substantial use of "Cross", but these places seem to be named after standing crosses. "Crossing" as a noun dates to 1695 with the verb form in common usage well within period. We note that "Southern" dates to the 10th C (in Bede's interlinear commentary of the Lindisfarne Gospels), but that all uses of "South" in English place names seems to be restricted to that word, and not "Southern". So in summary, we might recommend South Cross or South Crossway with the note that the intended meaning will probably change.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION

Dolores de Avila (Name Resub Kingdom)

Name:

Dolores is the submitter's mundane name, and she has provided a photocopy of her driver's license as proof. Avila is a city in Spain, which Columbia Lippincott, pg. 128 dates the walled town to the 11th C.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Honoré la Charmante (New device)

Or, a dragon sejant wings elevated and addorsed vert, maintaining a roundel and on a chief nebuly purpure three fleurs-de-lys, Or

Name:

registered by laurel 11/99

Device:

Note to submitter please draw the nebuly bolder and butcher. It is a very good example, but fewer, bigger bumps would make it visible at a distance.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Simon the Virtuus (Name Resub Kingdom)

Name:

Submitted as Simon the Virtuas. We are unable to find the word "virtuas" under the heading "virtuous" in the OED. Simon is a Biblical name, and according to Withycombe, pg. 271and its use in Britain dates to the DB. The earliest specific date is 1197. Virtuus is one of many variant spellings of "virtuous", dated to the 14th C in the OED, pg. 241.

Device:

NOTE TO SIMON'S HERALD Was he ever informed that his device submission was returned for conflict?

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Boethius, College of

Rosalia della Cuna (New device)

Vert, on a bend argent, a mamluk rosette palewise sable

Name:

registered by laurel 4/99

Device:

Conflicts with Leslie the Brown, 6/86, Vert, on a bend sinister argent a Hermet Thrush close proper.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW (CHARGE NOT IDENTIFIABLE), LACK OF PROPER SUBMISSION FORMS, AND CONFLICT

Calafia, Barony of

Áengus Ó Dubhghaill (New Name)

Name:

Áengus is from Ó Corráin and Maguire, pg. 148, dated to the 9th C.

Ó Dubhghaill is from Ó Corráin and Maguire, pg. 79. It's also in Woulfe, page 511, undated.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Aislinn Duibheasa of Clár (resubmission laurel name)

Name:

Aislinn - Ó Corráin and Maguire p. 21

Duibheasa - Ó Corráin and Maguire p. 78

Clár - Irish Place Names, Flanagan & Flanagan, p. 54

Double given names were not used in Gaelic. Submitter needs to do more research.

RETURNED FOR VIOLATION OF LAUREL PRECEDENT

Alastar the Coursayre (resubmission laurel name and device, New badge)

Sable, in pale A woman's head facing dexter couped and two ship's cannons crossed in saltire within a bordure argent

Badge: Sable, two ship's cannons crossed in saltire argent

Name:

Alastar - Ó Corráin and Maguire p. 21

Coursayre - OED, p. 567, dated to 1588

Device:

We have no documentation of the period nature of the cannon as drawn.

Badge:

We have no documentation of the period nature of the cannon as drawn.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE AND BADGE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Ayllyth Pìobaire (New Name)

Name:

Submitted as Ayllyth á Pìobaire

Ayllyth is an English name found in Reaney & Wilson, pg. 20 under "Aylett", and dates to 1279 in this spelling. We note that the citation lists the name as both a given name and a surname, with this spelling being a surname. An earlier name, Gilebertus filius Aillith, dates to 1204. In addition, Withycombe, under Aldith, we find the variant Ailith dated to 1086. We believe the submitted form is a plausible variant for the given name.

Pìobaire is from Thompson, "Gaelic Dictionary", page 138, and means "piper".

It is our understanding of Gaelic that the article á is unneeded, so we have removed it.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

David of Caithness (New Name)

Name:

David is found in Withycombe, pg. 80, and dates to 1084 as the name of a Scottish king. Caithness is found in Columbia Lippincott, pg. 306, undated, as a Scottish county. It is also in Black, pg. 124, but its appearance as a surname is post-period (1669). Finally, the place name appears in Johnston, "Place names of Scotland", as Catheness., dated to 1150.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dyfed MacDonald á Ceann-Láidir (New name, device, and badge)

Azure, a greyhound's head erased argent and a bordure compony vert and Or

[Fieldless] A greyhound's head erased argent

Name:

Dyfed - Saint's Dictionary, Farmer, p. 130 "David of Wales"

MacDonald - Black, p. 486

áCeann-Láidir - Gaelic Dictionary, Thomson, p. 205. "Willful" - a Welsh first name, an anglicized Scots clan name, and no evidence that the Gaelic epithet is properly formed.

Device and Badge:

Crescent notes William of Hoghton, 8/82, Sable, a grey wolf's head erased proper, and Wolfston of Lucerne, 7/84, Per chevron argent and sable, in base a wolf's head erased argent. In that greyhounds and wolves are both attested period charges, and they were considered distinct in period, and considering Laurel's recent ruling on birds, we are considering these to have a CD between them.

From January, 2000 LoAR cover letter

"... Past precedent is clear on this point ... ("raptors is raptors"). For the most part we are overturning this precedent, based on rule X.4.e.

The standard in this rule is that when comparing two chargers both of which were used in period heraldry, we consider them significantly different if they were "considered to be separate" in period. When considering owls in their default posture of close guardant it is difficult to construct an argument based on period evidence against granting this difference. The owl is found as a heraldic charge as early as 1308 (cited in Parker's Glossary p. 434) and in constant use ever since. Eagles displayed are found from earliest heraldry, and birds of the eagle/falcon/hawk family in the close posture date at least from the reign of Edward II (who died 1327). We have no reason to believe that there was ever any confusion between owls and the eagle/falcon/hawk family."

Furthermore, considering that a wolf is a shaggy beast with erect pointed ears and a greyhound is a short haired dog with pendant rounded ears, there is clear identifiability between the two beast's heads.

NAME RETURNED FOR MIXING OF LANGUAGES (RfS 1.A, LINGUISTIC CONSISTENCY), DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW OF BORDER, BADGE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME

Morgan Defecta (Name Resub Laurel)

Name:

Morgan the Defector was returned by Laurel in Nov 1998 for the following reason "Defector in this spelling can only be dated to 1660. Furthermore, English epithetical names don't generally derive from learned Latinate terms such as this. The combination of these problems makes the epithet un-registerable." [emphasis is Crescent's]

Resubmitted as Morgan the Defected.

Morgan is found in Withycombe, pg. 222, dated in various spellings to "early period". Morgan and Morgan date the name to "med. period". We note that in the introduction to Morgan and Morgan, pg. 7, the authors refer to Morgan as a feminine name. Defected appears in the OED on pg. 669 ff. and dates to 1596. The use of the past participle in epithets has been recently forbidden by Laurel. We called the submitter and received her permission to change the last name to the feminine form of the Latin participle of "deficio".

We are forwarding this based on the fact that the previous return was for the combination of being oop and that English epithetical names don't generally derive from learned Latinate terms. The combination of these as cause for return has been removed.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Pádraig ÓConnell (New name and device)

Sable, a chevron argent between 3 cat's paw prints Or

Name:

Pádraig is found in Ó Corráin and Maguire p. 152. Óconnell is in Woulfe p. 474, under ÓConnaill

Device:

Submitter is releasing currently registered name and device 12/85, Padrig Awdrie y Tir Coedwig, Per bend wavy very and Or, a mullet of eight points argent and an annulet azure.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Cellach mac Ualraig (Name Resub Laurel)

Name:

Steven of Calafia was assigned by Laurel to the submitter in Feb 2000.

Cellach is found in Black, page 144, and dates to 937. mac Ualraig is from Black, page 569, and is listed as the old Gaelic form of Mac Walrick. The submitter is changing the name to the form which Laurel suggested in her LoAR of Dec 1999.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Darach, Shire of

Rúadnat ingen Diarmada (New name and device)

Or, a chevron between two hedgehogs statant and an eagle displayed Or fimbriated gules

Name:

Rúadnat - Ó Corráin and Maguire p. 158, St. Rúadnat, sister of St. Rúadán of Lorrha. Diarmada - Woulfe, p. 349, dated to 1159.

Device:

Crescent cites Eirikr inn Litli, 10/96, Or, a chevron between 2 griffins combatant and a double-bladed axe gules.

The device violates the rule on complex fimbriation, RfS VIII. 3. "Voiding and fimbriation may only be used with simple geometric charges placed in the center of the design."

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Erasmus MacBain (New name and device)

Sable, a boar dormant argent

Name:

Submitted as Rasmus MacBain. Changed per submitter's comment.

Erasmus is in Withycombe, p. 104-105, dated to 1540, 1553. MacBain is found on p. 42 Black, dated to 1317

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Richard Morton of Cheshire (New Name)

Name:

Richard de Morton is found under Morton in Bardsley, "Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames", pg. 542, dated to 1273. Cheshire can be found undated in Ekwall, p.100, with the Latin form Ceastrescire cited from the Domesday Book. We are unable to date this particular header spelling. Variant homophonic spellings in Reaney & Wilson, pg. 93, especially Chesshyre (dated to 1575), are demonstrably within period.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Heatherwyne, Shire of

Ailidh Inion de Osrainge (New device)

Vert, a stag salient to sinister argent between three acorns leaved Or

Name:

returned 1/2000

Device:

Note to submitter Be aware that this may draw a link to Outlands.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR LACK OF NAME

Postmeeting

The meeting slid to a halt at 4 p.m., with half the assemblage asleep (well, Agatha and Manus, at least, with poor Thomas following close on their heels).

Bibliography

Black, George F. 1946. The Surnames of Scotland Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York The New York Public Library. Ninth printing, 1989.

Ekwall, Eilbert. 1960. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names. Oxford University Press Oxford. 4th (reprinted 1987)

Johnston, J. B. (1934) Place-Names of Scotland. London John Murray 3rd ed.

Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire 1981. Gaelic Personal Names The Academy Press Dublin.

Oxford University, editor 1971. The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press, Oxford.

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. 1995. A Dictionary of British Surnames Oxford University Press, Oxford, third ed.

Seltzer, L. E., ed. 1952 The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World Columbia University Press Morningside Heights, NY

Simpson, D.P., editor 1987 Cassell's Latin & English Dictionary. Macmillan New York

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names 1977. Third. Oxford University Press Oxford.

Woulfe Patrick Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall Irish Names and Surnames Genealogical Publishing Company 1967 Baltimore.

Standard disclaimer

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page