Minutes of the 23 July 2000 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jan 2001 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The next meetings are August 27th, September 10th,

Aestreðr announced that we all need to deal with the coincidence of birthdays Eirkir, Doria Techla, Maritza, Finella, and Master Bruce, all within a 2-week span. We dealt with this by singing the "normal birthday song." There were at least 5 more keys than people in the room.

The Golden Antelope Cornet has called and asked for duty heralds at Darkwell. Please contact Ciara via Email if possible.

There was some discussion online about the possibility of the CoH doing a road show at collegium this fall. The regent in charge of scheduling was contacted. This is being done as a 2-hour class. Crescent would like as many staff and senior heralds to participate as possible. He would like as many members of the college to attend. We'll take some submissions and show the populace how we work. We'll need the usual books. Clerical staff needs to gather beforehand to type in the information.

Crescent had this to say on sumptuary laws: Caid doesn't have any. We do have some (very few) Sumptuary traditions, however. Most people who say "you may or may not wear X," unless it is one of those items which Laurel has specifically reserved to an order of the peerage, are generally wrong. The cross of Caid is usable in arms, when placed on an escutcheon, is an augmentation of arms, and is allowed for those people who have been granted such an augmentation. Anyone can use the Cross of Caid in their arms so long as its use does not violate the rules of submission/heraldry/conflict.

The Cross of Caid is 4 crescents in saltier, horns outward. They are not in cross. In other words, the horns should not be pointing up. (There shouldn't be a "top crescent".) Any Caidan citizen is encouraged to use the Cross of Caid as much as they wish. It can be used as if it were a tinctureless badge. If, however, you are creating a standard, you should use it as registered. It should be in the area as close to the hoist as possible. There is no embattled (or other) border on the Cross of Caid. Note that the name "Cross of Caid" is not known out of kingdom, so it should be known by its blazon.

Chevron has donated several books from KWHS. 3rd Edition of Thanet, Da'ud 4, the proceedings of the KWHS. Colmb Du has donated his article on Ban-Shenchus as well.

Ghislain d'Auxerre is now Dolphin Designate (until the roster is updated). Njals has returned as Bellows

Crescent reminds submitting heralds that device and badge submissions require 3 color copies and two Line drawings (that's line, not black and white!!) Submitting heralds should keep a file copy, as should the submitter.

We need more field heralds!! We have had problems finding field heralds for heavy weapons. Rapier and Schenai are feeling very left out. Please, recruit more interested people into field heraldry.

To subscribe to the Caid Herald's email list [original subscription directions deleted in favor of a link to the list page.]

Altavia, Barony of

Will Schuyler the Younger (new name and device)

Gules, a chevron embattled between two swords in chevron and a roundel pierced Or

Name:

Submitter has a letter of permission to conflict with the registered "William Schuyler" which states:

"Will Schuyler the Younger is derived from a previously passed name, "William Schuyler." He is mundanely my son and has my permission to utilize this variation on my name." Signed William J. Shipley, aka William Schuyler."

Will - Withycombe, p. 293-294, "The usual abbreviation was Will." Wyll dated to 1515. We also site "Will Scarlet" in the Robin Hood legend. Withycomb's introduction (pg. XXXIII) mentions Will as dating to 1381. "Considered to be common, peasant names." Schuyler - grandfathered. From An Ethemological Dictionary of Family & Christian Names by William Aurther, (New York, Shoulden Blakemen & Co. 1857). P. 230 "Schuyler, Dutch, "van Schuyler, from the place of shelter." Schuler, German, a Scholar. Undated. Younger - dated to 1375. OED, p. 3864, "b. Used after a person's name for distinction from an older person of the same name." Reaney & Wilson, p. 508, under Younger, dates Edmond Yonger to 1379. The Younger, for example Elanasus Jr. 1201. CUR.

Device:

We site Kieren Bren of Bannockburn, 03/94, East, Gules, a chevron embattled between two chess rooks Or and a celtic cross argent. Clear by RfS II., 1.

(ACTION NOT NOTED, BUT NAME AND DEVICE PASSED ON 01/01 LoAR)

Angels, Barony of

Angus Amhas (Kingdom Resub Name, New Device)

Per bend sinister gules and sable, in bend three lions argent

Name:

Submitted as Angus an Amhas. Angus is found in Black, pg 23, being the header spelling and presumably the Anglicized form. Amhas is a Gaelic epithet meaning "the Madman", from "Gaelic Dictionary" by Malcolm Maclennan, page 12. As the use of a definite article in Gaelic is rare, and we have no Gaelic grammar text, we have removed the article 'an'.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Ciarán Grianánach (Laurel Resub Name)

Name:

Submitted as Ciarán Grianainech. Ciarán is found in OCM page 51 and was a popular Saint's name from early period. The submitter documents Grianainech from "Mythology of the Celtic People" by Charles Squire page 59, as an epithet meaning "Sunny-Faced" which was applied to Ogma, champion to the Tuatha. We are skeptical of the supplied documentation and have found the epithet spelled Grianánach in "Dictionary of Irish Language", Royal Irish Academy, page 371, meaning "sunny, bright".

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Cindy of Angels (Change of holding name)

Name:

Change to Móirín Bean Tagraídh -Holding name registered 03/00. Submitted as Móirín Bean-Tagraídh, we have removed the hyphen as we believe it to be modern. Moirin is found in OCM, page 139 under Mor. Bean-tagraidh - the submitter refers to the "Gaelic Dictionary" by M. Maclennan, page 157 where we find the masculine Fear-tagraidh = "defender", composed of "fear" = "man", and "tagradh" = "pleading". The submitter is a woman and has changed the gender of the adjective to "bean" = "woman", leaving the original lenition unchanged.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Calafia, Barony of

Arion Hirsch von Schutzhundheim (new badge)

[Fieldless] On a double headed eagle sable, two furisons palewise blades to center Or

Name:

registered by Laurel 6/92

Badge:

To be held jointly with Julianna Neunecker Hirsch von Schutzhundheim

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Bran mac Máel Brigte (new device)

Vert, 3 flames and a bordure rayony Or

Name:

passed laurel 1/2000

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dubh Easa of Inishmore (new device)

Per fess wavy argent and azure two owls vert and a seahorse argent

Name:

registered by laurel 8/99

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dyfed MacDonald (kingdom resub device)

Azure, a greyhound's head erased argent, a bordure compony vert and Or

Name:

submitted on the Caidan LoI of 07/01/00

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Isabel de Kelsey (New Device)

Or, a saltire between four compass stars azure

Device:

There is a conflict in Papworth, page 1059, Or, a saltire az, registered to three families Alderford, Vickham, and Wittlesey. We do not believe any of these people are important enough to warrant protection of these arms.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Julianna Neuneker Hirsch von Schutzhundheim (new device)

Sable semy of sparks, a stone enflamed between in saltire four furisons blades to center OR

Name:

NOTE Submitter spells her name Juliana Neuneker Hirsh von Schutzhundheim. She should be advised that it is registered with the spelling 'Julianna'

Device:

Submitter releases old device, Per bend sinister embattled argent and sable, a wyvern erect gules grasping in both claws a hammer bendwise sable and a harp bendwise sinister argent.

Note to submitter semy should cover the entire field. As drawn this is a stone enflamed, though

The submitter intended it to be a fourstein. The radial symmetry is unusual in period heraldry.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Kali Járnauga (New Name)

Name:

Both name elements are from Gierr Bassi, Kali on page 12, and Járnauga on page 24.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Killian Quinn (new name and device)

Vert, 2 tailless gryphons statant erect respectant regardant argent, maintaining between them a mullet of four points Or within a bordure sable the line of division overlain by an oral flory Or

Name:

Killian - anglicized Irish from OCM, p. 52, under Cilléne (submitter prefers 2 'l's, but will accept 1). Wolfe, vol 1. p. 49, undated. Quinn - Reaney & Wilson, p. 368, under Quin. Dated to 1394.

Device:

Submitter says this is period usage for Scot's heraldry. The border is very large, and it appears as if this is an escutcheon of pretense. The gryphons are not drawn recognizably.

The orle flory is not allowed in SCA heraldry. Fimbriated borders are not allowed. This orle is being used as a fimbriation. The border needs to be more in proportion to the rest of the device to remove appearance of escutcheon of pretense. Armory that breaks the rule of tincture has been registered by the CoA, the RfS (VIII.6) now require evidence that that specific style was widespread in period armory or attested by multiple examples in a specific region. However, the mere statement that the rule of tincture was violated in period does not suffice to justify placing a colored bordure on a colored field

Precedents of Bruce Draconarius, p. 110, "The orle flory has been disallowed for SCA use

It's to reminiscent of the double tressure flory counter-flory, which is an augmentation from the Scot's crown." LoAR 8/93, p. 19.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST PRECEDENT, FOR COLOR ON COLOR, FOR RECOGNIZABILITY

Rafael of Calafia (Change of holding name/resub)

Name:

Change to Rafael de Tempo - Holding name registered 05/00.

Submitter originally wished the byname 'Tempo' to mean 'of time'. Laurel could not document usage of that meaning as a name in period. Submitter here documents the cognomen as a locative.

Rafael is found in de Felice "Nomi", page 311, and is the Italian spelling of Raphael which has been used in English since the 16th C. We note that two unrelated names, Rafe and Raphe were used in Elizabethan England as alternates of Ralph, and shows the interchangeability of the "ph" and "f".

The submitter presents De Tempo, "of Tempo", the Anglicized spelling of a town in Co. Fermanagh, Northern Ireland, from CLG page 1891. We have also found the name Tempo in "The Meaning of Irish Place names", James O'Connell (isbn 0856401757), page 77, which the author asserts means "the (right-hand) turn". The submitter wishes to use the English affectation of the Norman "de" instead of the English "of", which is not unreasonable as the English periodically invaded and eventually conquered Ireland.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Sabatino Galante (New Name)

Name:

Submitted as Sabatino Donna Galantae. Sabatino is a diminutive of Sabato from De Felice, page 325. Galante means "gallant, courteous, amorous" which we have found in de Felice "Nomi", page 179, dating back to Medieval usage. The submitter actually preferred Donna Galantae found under "galante" in "The Italian Dictionary" by World Wide Fawcett, and is aware that the phrase colloquially means "call girl". We are unable to justify the use of a masculine first name with a feminine epithet, and are changing it according to his explicit instructions. If the College can justify the submitted form the submitter would be most pleased.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Darach, Shire of

Elizabeth Margaret of Cleves (new name and device)

Sable, a standing balance surmounted by a ram's head cabossed and on a chief Or, three sprigs of holly sable

Name:

Submitted as Elizabeth Margaret Cleves. We added "of" to show it as a locative. Elizabeth - Withycombe, p. 99, dated to 1207. Margaret - Withycombe., p. 206, dated to 3rd Century. Cleves - Webster's Biographical shows Anne of Cleves, 4th wife of Henry VIII. 1515-1557 Daughter of John, Duke of Cleves. It is possible that an Elizabeth Margaret came from the Duchy of Cleves.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Broichan Maqq Kynat (New Name)

Name:

The submitter wishes his name to be authentic for 6th - 9th C "Pictland" or the Highlands of eastern Scotland. Broichan is documented from "In Search of the Picts" by Elizabeth Sutherland, page 50. It is also mentioned in "A consideration of Pictish Names" by H. R. Jones (Tangwystyl), page 5. Maqq is the early form of the patronymic Mac, also on page 5 of Tangwystyl's article.

Kynat, along with Broichan, is documented in "The Age of the Picts", W. A. Cummins, pg 107 and 86 respectively. Black "Surnames", page 393, has a cognate dating to the 8th C of Cynoth, under Kenneth.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Fenwood Knoll, College of (Gyldenholt)

Geneviève d'Orléans (new name and device)

Vert, a decrescent, and in chief five mullets in arch argent

Name:

Geneviève Withycombe, P. 127; Genevieve patron saint of Paris, dated to 422. Orléans Dauzat Nomes, p. 457, undated. CLG, p. 1391, dated to 5th C.

Device:

Precedents of Bruce Draconarius, p. 6, LoAR 10/92, p. 30, says "It has been ruled that an arch of charges is not period heraldic style."

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR STYLE

Heatherwyne, Shire of

Aillind ingen Gilla Pádraic (Kingdom Resub Name)

Vert, a stag springing contourny argent between three acorns Or

Name:

Aillind is from "The Ban Senchus" by Scott Catledge (Colm Dubh), a list of famous married women in Irish literature and history. All names in the article are dated by the author to the 11th and 12th centuries. ingen is the Irish patronymic. Gilla Pátraic means "servant of St. Patrick", dated in OCM to the 11th C on pg. 112. The submitter contends that the name would not be lenited when written within her period, but will accept any corrections the College deems necessary. OCM gives as variants Gilla Phatraic and Giolla Phadraig under the submitted name header.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Davin MacAlister of Drake's Height (Laurel resub device)

Per chevron azure and Or, two natural tigers couchant addorsed tails entwined argent marked and a drake volant, wings displayed sable

Name:

registered 7/90

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Ieuan Chwith (New Name)

Name:

Both name elements are from "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names" by Heather Rose Jones (Tangwystyl). They are also both header spellings from Morgan & Morgan, pages 130 and 69. Ieuan dates to 1533, and Chwith to 1292.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Isles, Shire of

Isabel de Triana (kingdom resub device)

Chequy vert and argent, each argent check charged with a frog vert

Name:

registered by laurel 4/95

Device:

The checks were too large to be properly chequey (they need to be more and smaller). The green base makes this hard to blazon any other way. Turning the small green area in the base to white would make this a cross quarter-pierced throughout. We recommend this.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Nordwache, Barony of

Snorri of Nordwache (Change of holding name, new device)

Sable, on a sun between in fess two spears Or, a raven regardant sable

Name:

Change to Snorri Hrafnfæðir. Holding name registered 12/98.

Snorri is found in Gierr Bassi, page 14. Hrafn-fæðir is referred to by Tangwystyl (in personal e-mail with the submitter) which she documents from Cleasby & Vigfussen (under hrafn) and is attested to mean "raven-feeder". We do not have this book so we defer to her on the spelling and meaning.

Device:

There appears to be a conflict with Kourost Bernard of the East Woods Sable, a sun eclipsed Or. There is a CD for the addition of the spears, but changing the black eclipse to a black bird is a change of type only, not satisfying the criterion of two changes for tertiaries for a CD. Suns are specifically not simple for purposes of X.4.j.ii (page 75, Precedents of Da'ud ibn Auda).

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Postmeeting

Minutes scribed by Christopher Thomas and Thomas Brownwell, Deited by Master James and Crescent.

Bibliography

Aurther ,William. 1857. An Ethemological Dictionary of Family & Christian Names, Shoulden Blakemen & Co. New York.

Black, G. F. (1946). The Surnames of Scotland Their Origin, Meaning and History. New York Public Library, New York. 1989 reprint edition.

Dauzat, A. (1987). Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et des Prénoms de France. Larousse, Paris. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.

De Felice, E. (1986). Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A, Milan.

De Love, Franscisca Arana (1982). Nombres Propios Españoles. Editorial Vosgos, Barcelona.

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. 1977. The Old Norse Name. Studia Marklandica Olney, MD.

Morgan, T. J., and Prys Morgan. 1985. Welsh Surnames. University of Wales Press Cardiff.

O'Connell, James. The Meaning of Irish Place Names, (isbn 0856401757)

Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire (1990). Irish Names. The Lilliput Press, Dublin.

Oxford University, editor (1971) The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press, Oxford.

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. (1995). A Dictionary of British Surnames. Oxford University Press, Oxford, third edition.

Room, A. (1994). A Dictionary of Irish Place-Names. Appletree Press, Belfast, revised edition.

Seltzer, L. E., ed. (1952). The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. Columbia University Press, Morningside Heights, NY.

Withycombe, E. G. (1997). The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford University Press, Oxford, third edition. Reprinted 1982.

Standard disclaimer

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page