Minutes of the 25 February 2001 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Sep 2001 LoAR, except Ghislaine d'Auxerre's badge is on the April 2002 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

[NOTE: These minutes had some formatting problems. Therefore, some special characters may not have come through.]

Dolphin called the meeting to order at 11:10 am.

Crescent, unfortunately, was unable to attend due to bad weather (i.e. the Grapevine was snowed in).

Battlement Herald, a member of Crescent's staff that provides lists of award recipients and recent registrations by Laurel in The Trumpet's Voice in the Crown Prints, due to mundane commitments needs to be relieved of some of his responsibilities. To that end, Crescent is seeking a volunteer to take on these duties. Anyone who is interested, please contact Crescent personally.

The Estrella War was a great success for the heralds. There were only 3 Caidan submissions, but all the heralds in attendance were kept busy for 4 days straight!

The College's roster is being updated. Please provide the following information to Crescent either in writing or via email: your SCA name, contact information, and current title.

On an administrative note, all branch submissions which include a check from the branch to the College must include a form for inter-branch transfers of funds, with a copy CC'd to the Kingdom Exchequer. This form is used to ensure that the net transfers between branches balance at the kingdom level, and should be included with all transfers of SCA funds from one SCA account to another SCA account.

The current drafts of Dame Elspeth's precedents, which cover through June 2000, are available on line at http://home.earthlink.net/~mranc/

Altavia, Barony of

Eileen Dover of Calafia (New Name Change, Laurel Resub Device)

Vert, a dance Or, overall two badgers combatant argent marked sable, in chief a roundel checky argent and sable

Name:

Eileen Dover, registered 8/00. She wishes to add the locative of Calafia, where Calafia is an SCA barony in the Kingdom of Caid (formerly in the West) registered in the far, distant, misty times before such things were kept track of...

Device:

Laurel returned the original device, Vert, two badgers combatant argent marked sable in chief a roundel checky argent and sable and in base a dance Or in 8/00 because we hadn't documented dances in base. The submitter has chosen to move the fess into it's natural position on the field and. However, the two mostly argent badgers were drawn on top of the dance rendering the ordinary unidentifiable and causing contrast problem between the two. We recommend possibly drawing a base indented.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR RE-DESIGN

Elspeth Colquhoun (New Name and Device)

Purpure, a panther passant guardant argent semy of roundels of divers tinctures, incensed proper

Name:

Elspeth is found in [Black], pg. 646, under Panton, dated to 1539. Colquhoun is found on pg. 163, ibid, and dates in this spelling to 1308.

Device:

We cite Sterling de Seincler, Oct '99 (SCA), [Fieldless] A panther courant facing dexter argent, but note Da'ud's precedent 1.1 on pg. 39, wherein he states, "We feel that the second CVD can be granted from the change from courant to passant [sic -- should be statant as in blazon], as it changes dramatically the position of all of the legs. (Much as a CVD is granted for the change from statant to couchant, which effectively only removes the legs.)" (LoAR 11/90).

We also note that the drawing shows the forepaws in a position consistent with "passant", however, the rear paws appear to be statant, thereby blurring the distinction and thus requiring a re-draw. In addition, the flames should be drawn with alternating red and yellow flames, not red flames fimbriated yellow.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR RE-DRAW

Mercedes de Santa Justa (New name and Device)

Vert a sea-fox guardant between in chief two pipkins argent

Name:

Mercedes is found in [de Love], pg 280. However, in January 2000 Laurel returned Mercedes Amici indicating that the name Mercedes was not found in Spain until well after 1600. Therefore, absent evidence that Mercedes was used in period, this name must be returned. Santa Justa is found on pg. 246 of [de Love].

Device:

We cite Vert, a sea-wolf erect maintaining a harp in its dexter paw and a bordure embattled argent (Celric of Marinus, Jun 98), noting that it is clear with two CDs for type and number of secondaries.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION
DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME

Angels, Barony of

Henri Bigod (New Name)

Name:

Henri is the Old French form of Henry, found in [Withycombe], pg. 149. Bigod is a Norman name found in [Bardsley], pg. 159, dating to the 11th C. It is also found under Bigots' in [Reaney], pg. 43, dated in this spelling to 1332.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Áengus Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf (Laurel Resub Name)

Name:

Áengus Ó Dubhghaill was returned by Laurel (10/00) for conflict with Angus Mac ougall. We note the Elspeth precedent (9/99) referring to Coinneach mac Dhomhnuill, which states that the name is clear of Coinneach Ó Domhnail. "Mac 'son of' and Ó 'descendent (grandson) of clan' of refer to significantly different relationships and are therefore clear." We, however, are submitting the name with the epithet. Áengus is found in [OCM], pg. 148. Ó Dubhghaill is found on pg. 79, ibid. Grey is found in the [OED], pg. 12O4, dating to the 10th century forward, and denotes the color. Wolf is found in the [OED], pg. 3807, and dates to 1509 denoting "A person with wolf like character".

The question was brought up as whether or not Grey Wolf could be considered a period epithet, and whether an English epithet be used with a Gaelic name and surname? On the first point, [Reaney] pg.498 cites the use of "wolf" as an epithet: Robert WuIf 1166, John le Wolf 1279. Reaney also cites examples of "[color] [animal]" as bynames, and specifically on pg.203 under Graygoose cites "grey goose" - Richard Graigos 1249, John Greygose 1524 - and "grey deer" -Thomas Graydere 1373.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Enna van Leuven (New Name and Device)

Sable, on a fess argent, three mullets of eight points azure

Name:

The submitter indicates that she desires a name appropriate for 11th or 12th C Dutch/Flemish. Enna was found on Laurel's website in the article Early Dutch Feminine Names by Brian Speer (Walraven van Nijmege) and dates pre-1100 (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/earlydutchfem.html). Submitted as Van the spelling was changed to van, which is the locative in Low German (Flemish, modernly Dutch). From Bruce's precedents, "The v in van wasn't capitalized in Dutch names until later, when they were coalesced into a single surname. (David van den Storm, September, 1992, pg. 5)." Leuven is the Flemish spelling of Louvain, found in [CLG], pg. 1087, which dates structures in the city to the 14th century.

Device:

At the time of the meeting, no conflict was found regarding the device. However, in the on-line A&O, I found Tahira of Carolingia, reg.6/00: Sable, On a fess argent an Arabic pen box azure. There is no more than a single CD, for changes to tertiaries. In the defense of those conflict checking at the meeting, it's too recent of a ruling to have been in the published updates, so it's no one's fault that it wasn't caught at the meeting.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Seosaidh MacFhaoilchéire (Administrative Action)

Name:

The submitter's name was registered in 7/96

Device:

The device Sable, On a bend sinister argent between two wolves couchant, bendwise sinister argent, a wolf couchant sable was registered in 10/95 under the name Joseph of Dreiburgen, which was a holding name. When the submitter's name was registered in 7/96, the armory was not transferred to the newly registered name. The submitter requests that the armory be transferred to his registered name and the holding name released.

ADMINISTRATIVE CHANGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Seosaidh MacFhaoilchéire (New Badge)

[Fieldless] On a tower argent two claymores in saltire sable

Name:

The submitter's name was registered in 7/96. This is a joint badge with Siobhán nic Collach.

Badge:

The submitter is advised to make the claymores larger and more visible. We note Aelfric se Droflic, badge for Seeker's Keep (9/92), [Fieldless] On a tower argent, an acorn sable, which is clear with a CD for fieldlessness and one for change in type and number of the tertiary charges.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Steinsee, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Robert of Gresewode (Name and device)

Or, five birds volant two one and two sable

NOTE: This item shows in the folder as having been considered this month, but was not in the minutes.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Ghislaine d'Auxerre (New Badge)

[Fieldless] A panther's head erased azure semy of compass stars argent, gorged of a coronet Or

Name:

The submitter's name was registered in 4/92.

Badge:

The submitter is a Court Baroness of Caid, with precedence from November of 2000 and so is entitled to bear the coronet. The tincture of the pantheon was blazoned azure semy of compass stars argent to match the existing blazon of another badge of this submitter.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Hrorek Halfdane of Faulconwood (Release of Badge)

Name:

Submitter's name was registered in ancient times.

Device:

The submitter wishes to release his badge, Azure, a unicorn's head couped to sinister within eight mullets in annulo Or.

ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Lyondemere, Barony of

Lyondemere, Barony of (New Badge)

[Fieldless] On a bar couped vert, a lion's paw escallop Or

Name:

This badge is for the use of the populace.

Badge:

The lion's paw escallop has previously been registered to this group, and they want to use this specific form although it is not significantly different from any other scallop shell.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Lyondemere, Barony of [for the Order of the Lion's Paw] (New Badge)

[Fieldless] A lion's paw escallop Or, within and dependent from a garter vert, buckled Or

Name:

The order name was registered by Laurel 8/84.

Badge:

The emblazon shows the shell hanging from a ring ~ attaching it to the belt or garter, as a physical shell could be attached.

The lion's paw escallop has previously been registered to this group, and they want to use this specific form although it is not significantly different from any other scallop shell.

Concern was raised regarding precedence recently given by Elsbeth in the instance of the return of a Meridian badge, "Pol MacNeill. Badge. Or, a gurges purpure within a belt sable. Armory using a charge within a belt strap is restricted as such motifs were used as a standard form of badge display in Scottish armory. 'There is a precedent going back some eight years banning the use of the 'Badge within a strap' since this is a standard form of display for Scottish badges: the chief uses the plain badge and the clansmen use the badge within a strap'. Therefore, we have on several occasions returned or pended submissions to allow them to be considered without the strap'. In this case, dropping the strap would not be adequate to resolve this problem since conflicts then arise." (January 1990 LoA&R, pg. 20)"'

After further conversations with the submitting herald, it was decided to withdraw the submission to consider a redraw.

DEVICE WITHDRAWN BY SUBMITTER

Gerhard von Regensburg (New Name Change)

Name:

The submitter's current name, Gerhard of Nordvald, was registered in 7/94. He wishes to change his name and release both of his old names Derek of Nordvald and Gerhard of Nordvald. Gerhard is found in [Bahlow], pg. 166, dated to 1250. Regensburg is a city in Germany, found in [CLG], pg. 1566, with chapels and an abbey dating to the 7th century. We also found it as the header spelling in [Bahlow, Place names], pg. 388 undated but with various spellings back to the 8th century.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gilbert Rhys MacLachlan (Administrative Action/Request for Reblazon)

Device:

In 12/89, the submitter's device was registered with the blazon Azure, two chevronels argent, overall a cross fleury counterchanged, all within a bordure dovetailed argent. The submitter requests that it be blazoned Azure, two chevronels argent, overall a cross fleury counterchanged, all within a bordure dovetailed argent.

Since the emblazon provided with his original submission does in fact show the lower arm of the cross elongated the Caidan College supports this request.

REQUEST SENT TO LAUREL WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE COLLEGE

Ian Duncanson (New Name)

Name:

Ian was declared SCA compatible in Laurel's letter of 4/97 (re: Ian Mac Tawisch). Duncanson is the header spelling in [Reaney], pg. 145. This spelling is also found in [Black], pg. 228, also undated. The earliest spellings date to 1296. As further argument the spelling Dunkanson dates to 1367 and Duncaneson dates to 1413 (both in Black, pg.228), so Duncanson is a reasonable interpolation of the two.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Naevehjem, Barony of

Ana inghean uí Riagáin (New Device)

Argent, a stag's head cabossed gules, on a chief triangular sable a crescent argent

Name:

The submitter's name was registered by Laurel 7/00.

Device:

No conflicts were found.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Angus Stormsbrooke (New Name)

Name:

Angus is found in [Withycombe], pg. 25, dating to the 9th century as the name of a saint. [Black], on pg. 24, dates the spelling Angus as a surname to 1470. Also, on pg.23 of Black, we have Angus mac Dunec' c. 1204. Stormsbrooke is constructed from the surname Storm and the geographical brooke, using the possessive to mean Storm's Brook. Storm is found in [Reaney], pg. 430, dating to 1206. brooke is found in [Ekwall], pg. 69, dating to 1254. brooke is also found in the [OED], pg. , dating to 1593. We note Elspeth's precedent concerning the surname Kegs End, wherein she states, "Smith, English Place-Name Elements, under ende lists Sewards End. Forming a hypothetical place name in the form <surname>s ± End seems therefore reasonable. We have, however, removed the apostrophe, to conform with period usage." Unfortunately, all of the prefixes attached to geographical features (such as brook, hill, etc) are comprised of given names, not surnames, and Elspeth's precedent is inconclusive with regard to this specific name.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION

Starkhafn, Barony of

Starkhafn, Barony of: Defenders of the Flame of Starkhafn (New Order Name)

Name:

The Order of the Flame of Starkhafn was registered by Laurel in 7/83.

Several problems occurred with the submission beginning with the lack of designator, such as "The Order of". Laurel has ruled in the past that "Defender" is not an allowable designator. Also, unfortunately, the submission did not include a petition / letter of permission. Typically, these should include the signatures of the seneschal, herald, baron & baroness, and if possible, the populace.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF PETITION AND FOR LACK OF DESIGNATOR

Starkhafn, Barony of: Augmented Flame of Starkhafn (New Order Name)

Name:

This name lacks a designator. Submission does not include a petition letter. (See above) Also, it should be noted that even with a designator, Order of the Augmented Flame doesn't really fit any period order name patterns.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF PETITION AND FOR LACK OF DESIGNATOR

Emeline Vigamerr (New Name and Device)

Azure, six bees in annulo, tails inward proper, on a chief embattled Or, a weaver's slea proper

Name:

Emeline is found in [Reaney and Wilson], pg. 155, under the subheading Emblem, dated to 1115 AD., as Godefridus filus Emeline. It is also found in [Withycombe], pg. 103ff, under the heading emmeline, with the note that it was introduced into England by the Normans. This specific spelling is not dated by Withycombe, although it gives other spellings beginning in 1199. We note that Emma and Embla are both found in [Geirr Bassi], which supports the derivation through Norman French, without directly supporting this combination.

Viga is found in [Geirr Bassi] on pg. 29 meaning "battle" and merr is found on pg. 25 of [Geirr Bassi] with the cited meaning "mare".

Device:

There was confusion among the members of the College as to what the tertiary charge was. It was easily mistaken for a ladder. There are several period examples that show the weaver's slea in this same depiction, however, in reviewing the Pictorial Dictionary, we noted that the artist added two thicker bars, one at each end, which we believe was done to help differentiate the slea from a ladder. So, rather than possibly risk having the submission sit for 6-8 months just to have it returned for redraw, we did so here to save the submitter time and possible frustration later.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Fergus O'Fey (Kingdom Resub Device)

Azure, a Bowen knot crosswise braced with an annulet within a bordure Or

Name:

The submitter's name was registered by Laurel in 8/00

Device:

The submitter's previous submission, Azure, a Bowen knot crosswise braced within an annulet Or was returned at kingdom for multiple conflicts.

We note the registration of SCA arms, one with the interlaced annulet [Borhe Olafs (10/93), [Fieldless] A Bowen knot braced with an annulet Or], and another with the rotation of the knot [Ceridwen ferch Cynddelw ap Tanno Gwynedd (1/92), Gules, a Bowen knot set crosswise within an orle of oak leaves Or]. We also note the arms are clear of Jennet the Gentle (3/99), Per pale purpure and vert, a Lacy knot and a bordure Or, with a CD for the tincture of the field and a CD for the change in type of knot. We believe this Bowen knot is technically clear of a Lacy knot, with the removal of a significant portion, and a subsequent rotation of the innards.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Standard disclaimer

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page