Minutes of the March 2, 2008 College of Heralds Meeting

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Cassandre Nicole Loustaunau, Meala Caimbeul, and Marion Coral.

Upcoming meetings are: April 6th, May 18th, July 13th.

The Estrella Herald's Point autocrat sent Crescent a letter thanking the Caidan College for their assistance at the Estrella Herald's Point.

The updated Order of Precedence is now available on the Caid herald's page. As always, it is a good idea to check out your own listing to confirm its accuracy. Any corrections or questions can be sent to the keeper of the O.P., Catrin, at op@sca-caid.org.

For any intending to participate in Crown who do not yet have a name and device registered or in submission, the last chance prior to Crown Tournament will be the next College of Heralds meeting on April 6. Local heralds are encouraged to reach out and help any who may find themselves in this situation.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the June 27, 2008 Letter of Intent.

Angels, Barony of the

Amalgaid mac Donnagán. New name.

[Name] Submitted as: Amalgaid mac Donnagàin. No boxes are checked.

Amalgaid is documented from OCM, (p.22, s.n. AMALGAID: AMALGAIDH), which lists it as the name of the first king of Munster.

mac Donnagán, "son of Donagan." MacLysaght, (p.85 s.n.: Donagan) dates Donagan to the 17th C. Woulfe (p283, s.n Dongan) indicates Dongan is from "the Irish Donnagán, which was adopted by the Anglo-Saxons." We have fixed the accent over the final "a" and removed the "i" to match documented forms.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.

Balthazar van der Brugghe. Laurel resubmission badge. Sable, a schnecke issuant from sinister base and a bumblebee Or.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 08/03.

[Armory] This is a resubmission of his previous armory submission, Or, a schnecke issuant from sinister chief sable, returned by Laurel 06/06 for conflict:

Unfortunately, this device must be returned for conflict with Damian Thorvaldsson's device, Sable, a gurges Or. Per the July 2005 Cover Letter, Damian's device is equivalent to Or, a gurges sable. Under that blazon, there is only a single CD between Balthazar's device and Damian's for the difference between a schnecke and a gurges.

The addition of the secondary charge creates the necessary, second CD. (The change in orientation does not add any difference.

We strongly recommend redrawing the schnecke per the advice given to Rachel of the Sandy Stream 08/03, "Please advise the submitter to draw the schnecke so that it is more centered on the field. The curl of the schnecke should extend both above and below the center point of the field."

A greater problem is that the insect is not distinctly a bee; it is suggested to draw the wings and body rounder, with a larger thorax. Given these issues, we feel it is best to return this submission now, rather than risking a failed trip to Laurel.

Badge returned for redraw.

Cassandra Magauran. New name.

[Name] No boxes were checked.

Cassandra is from Withycombe, (p.59, s.n. Cassandra), "It is first recorded about 1207. A common Christian name in the 13th & 14th C."

Magauran is from MacLysaght (p. 133, s.n. Magauran), "the center of their territory is indicated by the village called Ballymagauran." Org. Magshamhráin, 'of summer'.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Dalphina Delacroix. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name, and will accept all changes (form altered prior to submission). If changes must be made, she cares most about the language/culture (not specified).

Dalphina is a feminine name found in "Occitan Names 1380-1385" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael. This source lists Dalphina, with 2 instances in the regions of La Costa, La Rollandia & Vernesia.

Delacroix is a surname found in "Names from 16th Cent. Picardy" by Arval Benicoeur, which cites Denis Delacroix. Also, Dauzat (p.183, s.n. Decroix) lists the name with no date.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Elric Shadewe of Sylverstone. New name and device. Lozengy sable and argent, a cresset gules enflamed proper.

[Name] The submitter will accept minor but not major changes. No other preferences are indicated.

Elric is documented from Searle, (p. 226), dated to 863. It appears the name is used later than the date given as well. R&W, (p.6, s.n.Aldrich) gives us Elricus. No date is given but it is from the "Dane Law" between 1066 and 1279.

Shadewe is also documented from R&W, (p.402, s.n.: Shade, scaadu) as an OE word, and cites Andrew Shadewe, dated to 1314.

Sylverstone is documented from Ekwall, (p. 423), with "Silvestone" from the Domesday Book, and "Sylverton" dated 1249. Given these two variants, Sylverstone seems a reasonable spelling variant.

[Armory] This must be returned for redraw. The flames are not clearly distinguishable. We request the submitter use standard, heraldic flames. Also, we recommend drawing the shaft of the cresset a bit thicker so that it is more clearly visible over the complex field.

This is clear of Per pale and chevronelly argent and sable, a torch gules inflamed proper and a chief rayonny gules (Tristan der Fackeltträger, 01/91) with a CD for changes to the field and another for removal of the chief. Also clear of Per saltire argent and azure, a cresset sable enflamed proper. (Agelos Eveinece 2/82)

[Administrative] The submitter paid $20. $5 Refund required.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for redraw.

Nicholas the Archer. New name and device. Per pale argent and sable, an arrow bendwise Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, he is most interested in the unspecified sound.

Nicholas is documented from "Men's Given Names from Early 13th Century England" by Talan Gwynek, with fourteen instances in the source data. Also, Withycombe (p227, s.n Nicholas) lists it as well.and dates the name to 1273.

the Archer is an occupational byname. R&W (p.13, s.n. Archer) dates "le Archer" to 1199.

[Armory] This does not conflict with Gules, an arrow bendwise inverted Or (Margaret Fletcher, 12/98). There is a CD for changes to the field and another for change in orientation of the arrow. This is a well-drawn arrow and is clear even on the neutral-tincture field.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Rayne the Archer. New name and device. Argent, two arrows in saltire inverted vert between four gouttes d'larme.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name, will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made is most interested in the unspecified sound. She specifically will not accept a change to "Regin, Regina, Reina, or Reyna".

Rayneis found in "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek. This spelling is dated to 1379. Unfortunately, due to the format of this online source, it is not easy to back-track to the source data. We also found it in Bardsley (p.639 s.n. Rayne and Rayner) and R&W (p.370, s.n Rain) dated to 1379.

the Archeris an occupational byname. See R&W (p.13, s.n. Archer) dates "le Archer" to 1199.

[Armory] Dolphin Herald notes that this is very clearly drawn, well balanced armory.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Calafia, Barony of

Nuala ingen Floinn. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept all changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about meaning. She has also marked the 'language and culture' box in the authenticity section, but has not indicated a time and place.

Nuala is documented from Woulfe, (p. 215, s.n. Nuala) which indicates it is a diminutive of 'Fionnguala' (p. 210). The submitter prefers the shortened form.

ingen Floinn is a patronymic: daugter of Floinn, found in Woulfe, (p. 532, s.n. Floinn) – from "Flann" meaning 'red'.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Darach, Shire of

Geurwyn ap Gorfydd. New name and device. Sable, within a mullet inverted voided and interlaced argent a lion rampant gules.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will not accept any changes, however he is most interested in the sound, language and culture (none specified).

Geurwyn, This is a constructed given name using the elements 'Geur" and "wyn". The submitter notes "Geurith" from "Y Camamseriad" (a publication of Harpy Music which claims to be a journal of Welsh research), issue 1, p. 74, and "Gwenwynwyn" from "A Welsh Miscellany" (Compleat Anachronist # 66, p..31). "A Simple Guide to Constucting 13th Century Welsh Names from Merioneth", by Heather Rose Jones does list the masculine name "Wyn" as a 13th cent form of Gwyn.

Gofydd, This is also a constructed byname using the elements "Gof" and "ydd". The submitter notes "Y Camamseriad", issue 1, p 76. Gof is also found in "Simple Guide to Constucting 13th Century Welsh Names from Merioneth". Ms. Jones says that the 13th cent form would be "Gof", and would be an occupational byname for a smyth. Additionally, the submitter notes "Amwerydd" from "A Welsh Miscellany". "Simple Guide to Constucting 13th Century Welsh Names from Merioneth" lists a number of modern welsh names that end with –ydd (Gruffydd, Dyddgu, Hunydd, Gwerydd, Iwerydd, Cynydd, Ysginydd, and Melinydd – but gives 13th c. spelling which do not have the ydd formation.)

Unfortunately, the submitter provided no documentation that Welsh is a language that regularly combines prothemes and deuterothemes to develop new names. We do not feel that these are reasonably documented constructed names and return the name for this reason.

[Armory] This must be returned for further work – it has a small gules tertiary charge on the field of sable, which breaks the rule of tincture (RfS VIII.2).

The design element, "a mullet of five points voided and interlaced" (either with or without a circumscribing annulet) was ruled unregisterable on offensive grounds due to an unfortunate association with "Satanism" (see: Andros ap Anlawdd, 10/79, Cerridwen of Raventree, 08/90). "...mullets of any number of points may be voided and interlaced, except for five points, which is still forbidden. ... There is enough ill feeling about the pentagram to keep it out under the offensive[ness] clause." (Andros ap Anlawdd, 10/79).

Since these rulings, Pentagrams have been accepted more widely as a benign, Wiccan symbol, even given approval by the U.S. Military for use on military grave markers. Given this, it may be that a new submission of this symbol might receive a better reception at Laurel. Still, the submitter should be made aware of the possibility of a return.

[Administrative] The submitter paid $20. $5 refund required.

Name returned for lack of documentation. Device returned for breaking the rule of tincture and use of a possibly offensive charge.

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Dananir al-Attarah. New device. Per chevron throughout wavy Or and vert, two pomegranates vert seeded gules and a camel couchant Or.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 01/06.

[Armory] No conflicts found.

[Administrative] The submitter paid $10. $2 refund required.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Egill the Loomwright. New device. Per bend sinister sable and vert, an eagle close Or and in canton an increscent argent.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 01/06.

[Armory] No conflicts found.

[Administrative] The submitter paid $10. $2 refund required.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Galavalley, Canton of

Gregor MacDonald. Kingdom resubmission device. Per chevron ployé throughout azure and gules, two Labradors combattant and a thistle Or.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 11/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, with an identical blazon, was returned by Crescent 10/07 for redraw of the thistle. This submission addresses the reason for previous return.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gregor MacDonaldand Petronel Harlakenden. Kingdom resubmission badge. Per chevron ployé throughout azure and gules, a tree Or.

[Name] The submitters' names were both registered 11/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design was returned by Crescent 10/14/07 for redraw of the tree.

This tree is drawn more clearly now, but it obscures the unusual field to a degree which requires return. Please adjust the tree and/or the field so that enough of the line of division is visible to recognize it.

Badge returned for redraw.

Illuminada Eugenia de Guadalupe y Godoy. New household name. Monelyght Chapel.

[Name] The submitter's name change (from Islyle le Gannocker de Gavain, 02/82) was forwarded on the 12/31/07 LoI. The submitter will not accept major changes. No other preferences are indicated.

Monelyght is a surname found in R&W (p.313, s.n. Moonlight).  This spelling is dated to 1442.

Chapel is a registerable designator for a household name:

[Capella Sancti Thomi et Sanctae Mariae Magdalenae] The argument was made in commentary that a chapel is a building, not a group of people, and that it should therefore not qualify as an alternative for household. However, the Oxford English Dictionary lists, among other meanings of the word Chapel,

7. A choir or body of singers attached to a chapel (usually of a king or prince); 'now extended to mean the choir or the orchestra, or both, of a church or chapel, or other musical establishment sacred or secular' (Grove Dict. Music). Often in French form chapelle, Ger. kapelle, or It. capella.

The earliest dated example given for this meaning of chapel is from 1420. This leads us to believe the term can be used for organized groups of people and thus as an alternative for household. [Simon Justus, 09/00]

Household name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Petronel Harlakenden. Kingdom resubmission device. Or, a six petaled rose proper between two peacocks respectant tails elevated to chief  azure.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 11/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission was returned by Crescent 11/07 for redraw:

While pretty, this is returned for redraw, The peacocks are not in a standard, heraldic position. It took us some time to come up with the blazon above, which is always sign of non-period style. Furthermore, their coloration is not either "azure" or "proper". There are areas blue, blue-green, etc. Please redraw the peacocks in standard position and coloring. We also recommend drawing the primary charge, the rose, a good deal larger.

This is clear of Argent, two peacocks close respectant azure, on a chief triangular purpure a crescent argent (Mardanah al- Hindiyyah 10/00) with one CD for change of field and another for removal of the chief. We decline to rule on whether the addition of the tiny rose helps to clear this conflict.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Dun Or, Barony of

Rana al-Gharnatiyya - New name change from Ianthe Delfini del Mare and new device change. Argent, a lion rampant contourney maintaining a pomegranate seeded gules, a chief embattled sable.

[Name] The submitter did not indicate any preferences. If this name is registered, the submitter's previous primary name was registered 08/94 and should be retained as an alternate.

Rana is found in Dictionary of Muslim Names by Salahuddin Ahmed, p. 313, meaning "soft."

al-Gharnatiyya; Arabic laqab meaning 'the Granadan.' The submitter received help from Al Jamal Herald. The attached email from Da-ud (in response to the request for a name meaning "of the Alhambra") indicates that there is not a name based on Alhambra, since it refers to the color of the clay around the building. Da-ud suggests that since the Alhambra is in Granada, a name meaning "the Granadan" might be an appropriate locative, which would in the feminine form be: al-Gharnatiyya. (We can only take Da'ud's word for it, no documentation was provided by him).

"A Celebration of Women Writers" also lists Nazhun al-Gharnatiyya who lived until about 1100 c.e.

[Armory] Should this submission be registered, the submitter's current device, Vert, two natural dolphins haurient respectant within a orle of ivy Or, which was registered 10/94 should be retained as a badge.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lyondemere, Barony of

Drusus von Augsburg. New name.

[Name] The form indicates this is a name change from Decimus Caelius Drusus. We see no previous registration or submission for this name, so we assume this is the name on his membership card. Therefore, we are treating this as a New name submission. The submitter desires a masculine name, will accept no changes, and will not accept the creation of a holding name.

No Documentation was provided. We are very concerned that the apparently Roman name, "Drusus" may be incompatible with the apparently German byname, "von Augsburg". Upon resubmission, the submitter should be careful to document these names within 500 years of each other.

Name returned for lack of documentation.

Gemma Beccari di Arezzo. New name and device. Argent, in pale a six-petaled rose proper and two bars wavy, on a chief azure two garbs Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name, will accept any changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the language/culture (not specified).

Gemma is documented from Nomi, (p.182, s.n. Gemma) "greatly distributed throughout the north, rarer in the south." "Italian Renaissance Women's Names" by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale lists Gemma.

Beccari is documented from Cognomi, (p.73, s.n. Beccari), "another northern name." Per Encyclopedia Brittanica, Augostine Baccari is dated to 1554. "Masculine Names from Thirteenth Century Pisa" by Juliana de Luna lists Beccarii.

di Arezzo: "of Arezzo" a province in Tuscany, and town with 13th C. Gothic cathedral. This documentation from Webster's New Geographical Dictionary. We also see the name used as a surname by Medieval artist, Margaritone di Arezzo, born 1240. She is found in several online sources, for example, the Library of Congress Citations. It may be that the locative marker should elide, giving us "d'Arezzo".

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Iago Margoni. New name and device. Bendy argent and sable, a cross of Saint Iago Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made he cares most about the unspecified sound.

Iago is documented from Nomi, ( p.220 s.n. Jago) which lists the variant 'Iago.' Iago is Spanish for James and gives us the placename Santiago. The Oxford Dictionary of Saints, lists James the Great on p.222 and notes, "The heyday of Santaigo de Compostela was from the 12th to the 15th century.", Iago is Spanish for James. "16th C Spanish Names" by Elsbeth Anne Roth lists 'Santiago de Equivel' dated to 1574, v.3454

Margoni is documented from Cognomi (p.162). Typically, this source does not give us a date. "Masculine Names from Thirteenth Century Pisa" by Juliana de Luna lists "Margonis" as an Italian byname.

A byname mixing Spanish and Italian is registerable as one step from period practice (Helena Seren de Luna, 08/01).

[Administrative] The submitter paid $16. $1 refund is required.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lylie Sole. Laurel resubmission device. Per bend sinister purpure and sable, a lily and a base argent.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 11/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Per chevron purpure and sable, a lily argent was returned by Laurel 11/06, "...for conflict with Kingdom of Meridies' badge for the Order of the Argent Lily, (Fieldless) A lily blossom argent. There is a single CD for adding the field." Adding the base provides the necessary, second CD.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Pátraic O'Ceallaigh. New name change from Gaius Gratius Brutus.

[Name] The submitter's current, registered name, Gaius Gratius Brutus (registered 04/05) is to be released upon registration of this change. The submitter will accept minor but not major changes. No other preferences are indicted.

Pátraic is found in OCM, (p. 152, s.n. PÁTRAIC: PÁDRAIG) which dates the name to 13th C and states "Patrick came into use as a personal name among the colonists in Ireland before it became popular among the native Irish."

O'Ceallaigh is documented from Woulfe (pp.457-458, s.n. Ó Ceallaig)

Ó Ceallaigh of Ui Maine, a branch of the Oirghialla of Ulster. They were one of the most powerful families in Connacht, and as chiefs of Ui Maine ruled over an extensive territory in the counties of Galway and Roscommon, which they held down to the reign of Elizabeth.

We find this clear of Padraig O'Ceallachain (06/90). The surname has an additional syllable, and is not to otherwise related. Also clear of Padraig Gliadrach Ó Ceallaigh (06/94) due to the removal of an element.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Naevehjem, Barony of

Ymanya Bartelot. Laurel resubmission device. Quarterly azure and Or, a red and white cockatoo close proper.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 10/07.

[Armory] The submitter's previous device submission, Or, a popinjay gules beaked, winged and tailed argent was returned by Laurel 10/07:

This device is returned for inadequate contrast of the popinjay. The defining features of the popinjay, its beak and tail, are argent on Or. This lack of contrast fatally hinders identification of the bird. We've previously ruled (Catherine Townson, February 2006) that there's a CD between a raven and a popinjay, based on the beak and tail; it thus becomes important that those features be seen, which means they must have good contrast.

This submission addresses the reasons for return.

Unfortunately, the bird in this submission does not closely resemble a Cockatoo. Specifically, the crest is not very like a cockatoo's. There are also questions about the blazonability of the different colored sections of the bird, specifically the additional argent 'cap'. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the submitter to redraw and resubmit.

Device returned for redraw.

Ymanya Bartelot. New badge. (Fieldless) A red and white cockatoo close proper.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 10/07.

[Armory] This emblazon is similar to the submitter's current badge, (Fieldless) A popinjay gules beaked, winged and tailed argent (10/07).

Unfortunately, the bird in this submission does not closely resemble a Cockatoo. Specifically, the crest is not very like a cockatoo's. There are also questions about the blazonability of the different colored sections of the bird, specifically the additional argent 'cap'. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the submitter to redraw and resubmit.

Badge returned for redraw.

Western Seas, Barony of

Guillaume Margelle du Puits en Pierre. New name and device. Argent, a cross crosslet patee fitchy and a bordure embattled azure.

[Name] The submitter is interesed in a masculine name. He will allow no changes, and will not allow the formation of a holding name.

Guillaume The submitter documented this as equal to William/Helmet (no sources) and glossed as 'protection'.

Margelle du Puits en Pierre means "curb-stone of the well-in-rock." This describes the portion of an ancient well above the ground, typically carved from rock, and may include a windlass for raising a bucket of water, and some roof or other covering. The submitter includes photocopies of two websites discussing these artifacts:

• http://www.bca-antiquematerials.com/fountains-pools/stockitems-en.html (see items # 00637, 00466) describes an item for sale, for example: "Ref 00466: Margelle de puits en pierre calcaire, ainsi que son entourage, pavage. Dimensions : margelle, diamètre intérieur 80cm, diamètre extérieur 130cm, hauteur 80cm. Ensemble 280cm de diamètre. Matériaux anciens." ("Antique limestone wellhead with steps and paved section surround. Interior diametre 31 inches, exterior diametre 51 inches x ht 31 inches. Overall including stepped surround = 110 inches across. Ancient stone wishing wells. Architectural antiques from France. Reclaimed materials.")
• http://pagesperso-orange.fr/lagacilly.fr/st%20jugon/patrimoine_bati.htm has photographs of wellheads. The phrase does not appear in the text, which is in modern French.

We must return this name for more work, though we believe the submitter is heading in the right direction. The main problem with the byname is that it is too specific. That is, if one's house is near the curbstone of a well, it is then also near the well as a whole. It is much more likely that people would say, "Guillaume lives near the well."

The byname is also missing a marker indicating that it is a prepositional phrase ("Guillaume of the rock well" rather than "Guillaume rock well" – though this is not reason for return. It appears that on rare occasions, this name might appear without the marker. Dauzat (p.500, s.n. Puis, Puits) tells us that Puis or Puits are rarely met with without a marker ("rare isolé surtout avec prépos. et art."). Dauzat indicates the more common forms are "Dupuis" or "Dupuits" meaning (house near) the well ("Dupuis ++, Dupuits+, << [maison ponche] du puits >>")

While we have not found clear evidence that the full phrase "le puits en pierre" was used in period, it seems at least plausible to us that it may have been. "Pierre" is found in Harap's Shorter French and English Dictionary by J.E. Mansion, M. Ferlin and P. Forbes (George G. Harrap & Co. Ltd., 1967) glossed as "stone." We believe the name "Guillaume du puits en pierre" might be a registerable name.

If the submitter wishes to take another direction, "Guillaume of Rockwell", "Guillaume de Rockwell" and simply "Guillaume Rockwell" are probably registerable Norman/English names.

[Armory] This must be returned for Conflict with: Argent a cross crosslet fitchy within a bordure embattled azure. (Óláfr Ojótarson of Øy 12/02) We count no difference for the minor change in the shapes of the arms of the cross. There is one CD for change in type of border (plain line to embattled) In addition to this, the submitted bordure is drawn far too thin and the embattled line of division should be drawn more boldly. These are also reasons for return.

[Administrative] The submitter sent in a check (#4009) in the amount of $20. As A refund of $5 is required.

Name returned for lack of documentation. Device returned for conflict and redraw.

Order of Precedence Notes

Guillaume Margelle du Puits en Pierre appears in the OP as William of Rockwell. He indicates that he has received an Award of Arms, which is not listed, in addition to Crescent Sword, White Scarf and Vanguard of Honor.

Bibliography

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer