Minutes of the July 19, 2009 College of Heralds Meeting

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Su Crescent, Illuminada Dolphin, Hrorek Chevron, Erickr Gold Phoenix, Damian Sable Fret, Martin Monteyro, Stephania, Eridana Trident, Uluric de Exeforde, Cormac Battlement.

Upcoming meetings are:  August 16, September 13, October 18, November 15, and December 20.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate.  Approved submissions will be forwarded on the September 21, 2009 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Anastasia Strelkova. Kingdom resubmission name and device. Gules, two bendlets argent mullety palewise sable.  

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name.  No other preferences were indicated.

Previous submission Erycha Scotte was returned from Kingdom 03/09 for further consultation.

Anastasia is found in Wickendon, 3rd ed., p. 7:  Anastasiia dated 1547. 

Strelkova Strelko is found Wickenden,3rd ed, p. 347 masculine name dated to 1539, Mitkia Strelko 

[Armory] Submitter is advised to draw the bendlets wider.  In the grammar section notes the following: "In most cases, women used the same types of patronymics as men. However, their bynames had to agree with the gender of the subject, which, in Russian, means that they had to add an "a" on the end" Therefore, Strelko becomes Strelkova.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.  Device was withdrawn by submitter.

Eldjárn Brandarson.  New Name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name, no other preferences are indicated.

Eldjárn is found in Geirr Bassi, p 9 as a masculine given name.

Brandr is found in Geirr Bassi, p. 8 as a masculing given name.

Brandarson is patronymic form based on Geirr Bassi p. 17.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Leanor of Saint Fermin.  New Device.  Argent, a pantheon sejeant to dexter azure and argent, a bordure engrailed azure.

[Name] We were unable to confirm that this name was submitted or registered, and there is no previously existing folder for this submitter.

Device returned for lack of name.

Madelena Hidalgo de Valencia.  New Device.  Or, on a chevron between three Jerusalem crosses gules, three hands of Fatina Or.

[Name] Her name was registered June 2003 via Caid.

[Armory] Submitter is encouraged to draw the chevron wider and the hands of Fatima larger.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Angels, Barony of the

Athena, the Order of. New Badge. Gules, the head of Pallas Athena couped contourny argent, wearing a full-faced and crested Grecian helmet raised Or.

[Name] This name was registered April 1982 to ‘Angels, Barony of the' which was registered at some point. \

[Armory] This was previously returned at kingdom in July 2008 for "lack of paperwork at the time the LoI was completed."

This depiction of Athena is found in Neubecker p.56, on a relief that appears to be classical.  Other depictions of this helm and the manner in which Athena wears it are found throughout the classical era, particularly on statuary.  Athens is one of the few European cities that has no arms, but it does have a seal depicting a full-body portrait of Athena wearing this type of helmet.  As the Middle Ages progressed, this became the standard depiction of Athena, until by the Renaissance, the only depiction http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/papers/stebbinsathena/athena2.html

(Note to Laurel: we included all the details in the blazon, but recognize that the blazon needs to be simplified. We ask guidance in refining the blazon.)

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Caid, Kingdom of

Golden Flame of Caid, Order of.  New Order Name and New Badge. Azure, a flame Or issuant from a crescent and a bordure embattled argent.

Name and badge held for further consultation.

Caid, Kingdom of. New Badge.  [Fieldless], a quatrefoil voided within and conjoined to an annulet argent..

[Name] Registered 02/75.

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Calafia, Barony of

Abigail Chandler of Caithness. New Device. Quarterly azure and argent, four fleurs de lis and a bordure counterchanged.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered November 2001 via Caid.

[Armory] This does not conflict with: Quarterly azure and argent, four fleurs-de-lys in cross, bases to center, counterchanged, Rebecca Mary Robinson (12/1994).  There is one CD for addition of bordure, another for position of charges, another for orientation of 3 of the 4 charges, and another for tincture of all four charges.

This also does not conflict with: Quarterly argent and azure, three fleurs-de-lys within a bordure counterchanged, Mariel du Bois (7/2000),  There is one CD for changing the tincture of the field, another for number of primary charges, and another for color of primary charges.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Eva de Castille. New device. Per pale gules and sable, three seablatter argent

[Name] Name registered January 2009 via Caid. 

[Armory] Conflict with "Per chevron sable and gules, three seablatter argent," (Angharad Caprioli Amante, 12/1996)

Device is returned for conflict.

Felinah Tifarah Arnvella Memo Hazara Khan-ad-Din. Augmentation of device. Per bend sinister raguly vert and Or, an eagle's head erased and a threaded drop spindle bendwise sinister counterchanged, for augmentation on the eagle's neck a roundel azure charged with four crescents conjoined in saltire horns outward argent.

[Name] Name was registered September of 1983 via Caid.

[Armory] Device was registered in March of 1983 via Caid, Per bend sinister raguly vert and Or, an eagle's head erased and a threaded drop spindle bendwise sinister counterchanged.

Documentation of the augmentation on the Caid OP is found at http://heralds.sca-caid.org/op/OP_Name_6_2009.pdf and has the date of the augmentation listed as November 15, 2008.

This would normally be considered excessive layering (field, head, roundel, crescents = 4 layers) but augmentations are specifically allowed as an exception to that rule.

Augmentation is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gunther of Orkney. New name and device.  Per saltire sable and gules, a phoenix and a bordure rayonny Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name and will allow no changes.

Gunther is found in Medieval German Given Names from Silesia by Talan Gwynek Copyright 1998 by Brian M. Scott http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/bahlow_v.htm where it is dated between 1240 and 1420:
Gunther 7: 1240, 1280, 1320, 1344, 1348, 1360, 1420

Orkney is found in Black pg 640 s.n. Orkney which cites Thomas Orkney of Scotland was illegally arrested at Lowestoff, 1505 (Bain, IV 690) and Thomas Orkney was witness in Glenurquhay in 1552.   Per the Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer (p. 1391 s.n. Orkney) the Orkney Islands were originally controlled by the kings of Norway, but were gifted to James III of Scotland in the 1400s. 

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.  Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Guillaume de Belgique. Augmentation of device, Argent, a gore sinister purpure and in dexter chief a bell sable and for augmentation on the bell on a roundel azure fimbriated  four crescents conjoined in saltire horns outward argent.

[Name] Name was registered in June 1984 via Caid.

[Armory] Device was registered June of 1984 via Caid:  Argent, a gore sinister purpure and in dexter chief a bell sable.

Documentation of the augmentation on the Caid OP is found http://heralds.sca-caid.org/op/OP_Name_6_2009.pdf and has the date of the augmentation listed as November 15, 2008.

This would normally be considered excessive layering (field, bell, roundel, crescents = 4 layers) but augmentations are specifically allowed as an exception to that rule.

Augmentation is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Jeremias Forster. New Name

[Name] Submitter desires a male name and allows minor changes. No other preferences are indicated.

Jeremias is found as a male given name with one citation on German Names from Nürnberg, 1497 by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/nurnberg1497.html   Jeremias is also found in Withycombe, p. 175, s.n. Jeremiah, Jeremias dates to 1200.

Forster is found as a German surname occurring 18 times in German Names from Nürnberg, 1497: A - M by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/surnamesnurna-m.html   Is also found in R&W p. 174, s.n. Forster, John Forster dtd to 1315.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Knut Forkbeard. New Name.

[Name] Submitter allows no changes except will allow lowercase "f" in forkbeard if required to register.

Knut is found as a male given Finnish name on Vanhat nimityyppimme (Finnish Names) by Rouva Gertrud
http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/FinnishNamesArticle.htm
KNUT    M            Knwt j Wemo 1449, FMU III 2817. The Finnish spelling would be KNUUTTI  or NUUTTI.

Knut as a male given name is also found in the Heimskringla or The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway Saga of King Harald Grafeld and of Earl Hakon Son of Sigurd Online Medieval and Classical Library Release #15b http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/grafeld.html " a man called Harald, a son of Knut" copy included

Forkbeard is a lingua anglica of the Danish nickname tjúgu-skegg found in A Concise Dictionary of Old Islandic, and in the Heimskringla or The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway King Olaf Trygvason's Saga: Part I Online Medieval and Classical Library Release #15b http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/trygvason1.html
"Svein, King Harald's son, who afterwards was called Tjuguskeg (forked beard).

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel. 

Marco Solario. New Name and Device. Or, two peacocks respectant reguardant tails displayed vert and a bordure gules.

[Name] Submitter desires a masculine name and allows no changes.

Marco is found as a male given name in the on line Catasto of 1427 http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ferrante/catasto/names.txt  listed 64 times (copy included)

Solario is found as a Venetian Surname in the 14th century Italy. Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names by Arval Benicoeur (Josh Mittleman, mittle@panix.com) and _Talan Gwynek (Brian M. Scott, scott@math.csuohio.edu) _October 1999 http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/venice14sur.html

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel. 

Device is returned for redraw, redraw of the peacocks to more heraldic position.

Medb inghen Mathgamna.  New Device. Sable a pall inverted purpure fimbriated between two bear paw prints and a raven reguardant argent.  

[Name] Name was registered November 2003 via Caid.

[Armory] Pawprints are a step from period practice.  The submitter is advised to to move the central point of the pall up higher, draw the secondaries (particularly the raven) larger.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Michael Mallory.  Resub Kingdom Device. Sable, a rapier inverted Or between two monkeys sejant erect addorsed argent each maintaining a cup Or.

[Name] Name submitted at the June 2009 Caid meeting, appears on the Aug 26, 2009 LoI.

[Armory] This was originally submitted as Sable, a rapier inverted argent between two monkeys sejant erect addorsed Or each maintaining a cup argent. The submitter agreed to change the tinctures to eliminate the possible conflict with Sable, a sword inverted argent, the blade enflamed proper (Balthazar Thornguard,  04/88). There was one CD for addition of the monkeys, but no CD for type of sword. 

Per precedent: "There is only one CD, for the change to the field. It also conflicts with Balthazar Thornguard, Sable, a sword inverted argent, the blade enflamed proper. There is a CD for the change in the field but, as drawn in Balthazar's arms, the flames are not significant enough to be worth difference.  (Béla of the Kyrghiz, Oct 2001)"

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Muirenn Segrave. New Name.

[Name] Submitter wishes a female name and will not accept major changes. Submitted as Muirenn Seagrave, was changed to match documented spelling for Segrave.

Muirenn is found as a feminine given name multiple times dated from 643 to 918 in Index of Names in Irish Annals: Muirenn by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) © 2000-2008 by Kathleen M. O'Brien.  Version 2.5, updated 26 March 08 http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Muirenn.shtml.  It is found in the same spelling in both Old and Middle Irish Gaelic in this article Dated in this spelling to in 979.

Segrave is found as a surname in Bardsley pg 675 under the header spelling Seagrave. Segrave is a locative from a parish in the dioc. of Peterborough and co Leicester. Period spelling appears to be Segrave, Gilbert de Segrave co Camb, 1273 A. Nicholas de Segrave, co Hunts, ibid and 2 others. This submission prefers the unmarked locative.

Segrave also found as an English surname listed in Woulfe pg 152.

The names are dated within three hundred years, so there is no temporal disparity.  This is a combination of English and Middle Irish Gaelic which is a step from period practice.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Veronica Bloodaxe.  New Name.

[Name] Submitter desires a female name, allows minor changes, and cares most about the meaning "blood axe"

Submitted as Veronika Bloodaxe 

Veronika is listed in Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Period Russian Names - as a feminization of Veronica and was dated to the 13-14th century
Veronika (f) -- "bring victory." Russianization of Veronica.
Veronika. Contemporary of Christ. [Buk 381]
Vars: Veronikeia (martyr). 13-14th Centuries. [Lev 52]
Vironikiia (martyr). 13-14th Centuries. [Lev 51]
Veronica is the legal given name of the submitter (documented by Trident and Uluric) and is acceptable to the submitter if the spelling Veronika is not registerable with Blood axe.

Bloodaxe is the lingua anglica of the Norse bló{dt} {o/}x meaning ‘blood-axe' found in Geirr Bassi pg 20 as an epithet byname. 

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

This name was submitted on OSCAR, but has since been withdrawn by the submitter.

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Juliana Romfare.  New Name.

[Name]The submitter desires a feminine name and will accept minor changes.

Juliana is found in Withycombe, p. 184 s.n. Julian(a), feminine given name dated in this spelling to 1196-1220.

Romfare is found in Jönsjö, s.n. Romfare, dated in this spelling to 1327, "traveler to Rome, pilgrim."

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel. 

Ránulfr Þorfinnsson. Laurel Resub Device. Argent, on a pile sable between two flames gules a horse's head couped contourny argent.

[Name] Name was registered April 2005 via Caid.

This submission as Vert, a horse courant dismembered argent, between two axes in chevron blades to center Or and a flame proper was originally returned by Laurel in December 2007:

This was pended on the May 2007 LoAR for a discussion of whether or not the arms of Rohan should be protected. The consensus of the College was that those arms, Vert, a horse courant argent, are indeed important enough to protect. For a discussion of this decision, please see under Rohan in the Laurel Acceptances of this LoAR.
As the arms of Rohan are protected, the submitted device must be returned for conflict with them.

This is returned for a redraw. The section in base blurs the line between per chevron and a point pointed. Laurel has previously ruled that bordures cannot be counterchanged across ordinaries other than a chief. If the submitter chooses to resubmit with a point pointed, he should provide examples that bordures were counterchanged over charged bases and/or points in period.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Rekon of Saaremaa.  New Name and New Device. Sable, on a bend sinister vert fimbriated three arrows palewise between two increscents argent.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name and will accept minor but not major changes.

This client's previous submission Rekon tulema Kuresaare, was returned for further consultation because

1. tulema is intended to mean "from" which it appears to mean in modern Estonian, but unfortunately, this is insufficient documentation for this word and the construction of the name element "tulema Kuressaare"..
2. Kuressaare - the documentation does not support this as the name, or appropriate spelling of the intended place in period.

This name must be returned for more work. We do not have enough indication that the two name elements are temporally or linguistically compatible. We do not have sufficient documentation of the place name marker.  

Saaremaa is an island of Estonia, which surrendered in 1227.

There is some concern about the temporal and linguistic viability of a Norse given name dated from the 10th century and an Estonian locative name dated from the 13th century. We also couldn't ensure that Saaremaa was a period spelling, and request the college's assistance in confirming the parts of the name.

[Armory]  The submitter's previous device:  Sable, an increscent argent and a tierce vert fimbriated argent was returned at the May 2008 kingdom meeting because "This conflicts with Sable, an increscent argent (Sean Macarailt Sandihiume 01/73) with only a single CD for addition of secondary charge. The fimbriation does not contribute to clearing this conflict.  Additionally, a tierce is not a suitable charge for fimbriation: "Voiding and fimbriation may only be used with simple geometric charges placed in the center of the design." (RfS VIII.3)" 
This is a complete redesign.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.  Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gallavally, Canton of

Hæmatite Pursuivant. Correction of spelling, 

[Name] Hæmatite Pursivant was registered to Gallavally, Canton of on the March 2005 LoAR.  It appears that the misspelling originated on the LoI, and was not noted at any point.  This is a request to correct the spelling of Pursivant to Pursuivant.

Correction approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Ida Harldsdottir.  New Device. Argent, a mullet voided and interlaced within and conjoined to an annulet gules.

[Name] Registered April 2001 via Caid.

[Armory] If registered, her previous device, Argent, a mullet within an annulet gules is to be released.

Submitter was contacted after the meeting and is unwilling to submit a blanket letter of permission to conflict.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lyondemere, Barony of

Pierre de Dieppe.  Resub Kingdom Device. Per bend sinister azure and vert, a bend sinister wavy argent a hexagon or.

[Name] Registered May 2008 via Caid.

[Armory] The solid charge of the hexagon obscures the bend sinister, which has a small amplitude and high frequency in the waves.  This lacks identifiability of both charges, which is cause for return, RfS VIII.2.b.  Cormac will be working with the submitter to rework the depiction of the bend sinister to make the charges more identifiable.

Device is returned for redraw, lack of identifiability of both charges.

Noe College

Noe College.  Resub Kingdom Badge. Fieldless, a pyramid Or.  

[Name] Registered March 2005 via Caid.

[Armory] Their previous submission (Fieldless) a triangle Or was withdrawn at the March 29, 2009 meeting.

Documentation summary: 1. The pyramid was used in period heraldry. There are examples of pyramids on English/Scottish heraldry, such as the entry in the arms registered to Malcolm in 1665, "Crest, on a mount vert, a pyramid proper entwined with an ivy branch, also proper." (The British Herald, Robson, 1830.) Tollett, undated, "... crest, Serpent coiled round the top of a pyramid: (Ibid) 2. The artifact is well known in period, and is therefore registerable under rule VII.3. The pyramid is clearly an artifact known in period, as an Egyptian monument, as is the Obelisk, which is currently cited in SCA heraldic publications as similar to a Column. (http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Templates/Buildings/index.htm)  Cormac will contact Batonvert, and Illuminada will address this submission at Pennsic Herald's Point, in an attempt to find an identifiable period example of a pyramid as an heraldic charge.

Badge returned for further consultation. 

Noe College .  Resub Kingdom Badge. Fieldless,, a pyramid azure.

[Name] Registered March 2005 via Caid.

[Armory] Previous submission withdrawn at the March 29, 2009 meeting.

Documentation summary: 1. The pyramid was used in period heraldry. There are examples of pyramids on English/Scottish heraldry, such as the entry in the arms registered to Malcolm in 1665, "Crest, on a mount vert, a pyramid proper entwined with an ivy branch, also proper." (The British Herald, Robson, 1830.) Tollett, undated, "... crest, Serpent coiled round the top of a pyramid: (Ibid) 2. The artifact is well known in period, and is therefore registerable under rule VII.3. The pyramid is clearly an artifact known in period, as an Egyptian monument, as is the Obelisk, which is currently cited in SCA heraldic publications as similar to a Column. (http://heralds.westkingdom.org/Templates/Buildings/index.htm)  Cormac will contact Batonvert, and Illuminada will address this submission at Pennsic Herald's Point, in an attempt to find an identifiable period example of a pyramid as an heraldic charge.

Badge returned for further consultation. 

Starkhafn, Barony of

Robert Belleman of Hornocke.  Resubmission of name and Resubmission of device. Per bend sinister azure and vert, a sword bend sinisterwise throughout between three compass stars and a wolf's head erased argent.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name and cares most about the language/culture: English - 15th century Cornwall.

Robertis found in Withycomb, p. 254, dated to 1071.

Belleman is found is R&W p. 38 s.n. Bellman from the Denham Parish Register 1598-1606.

Hornocke: from Castle Horneck, civil parish of Penzance, http://homepage.mac.com/philipdavis/English%20sites/225.html

The college was unable to find better documentation for the locative, and would ask the college for their assistance.

This locative was added to avoid conflict with the submitter's modern name.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.  Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Order of Precedence Notes

Rekon of Saaremaa received AoA and HA under name Rekon tulema Kuresaare

Juliana Romfare is the same person as Juliana Romfare of Leichestre

Bibliography

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